[SueDeNîmes.]

We MAY disagree however on how the ladder got lost. I can remember a lot of talk a couple decades ago about how your "Dole" worked. There were warnings then, from those wacky fiscal conservatives, that the system would eventually lead you here. That and, as I nderstand it, immigration issues have been kicking your ass lately.

Feel free to call me a know nothing Yank. I'm really just pulling this from memory and what may have been "US propaganda".

No, I really think that the laissez faire economy has actually hurt ppls' ability to provide for themselves here. Dunno how much the dole is now but it's always been prohibitively low. THe problem was that wages at the bottom end of the labour market got so low that work wasn't much more attractive. Many in work had to have wages topped up by welfare, which meant that the tax payer was effectively subsidising the entrepreneur.

You'd probably counter with complete removal of welfare (ppl pulling rickshaws and shining shoes or something?) but we'd have been stuck with Victorian poverty and an uneducated workforce who didn't stand a chance in the knowledge based economy. Plus rocketing crime. Really, there's no reason we couldn't have been more like Norway or the Netherlands where welfare has always been more generous, ppl work fewer hours, enjoy higher living standards and their economies are doing quite alright thankyouverymuch.

[clownboy]

You'd probably counter with complete removal of welfare (ppl pulling rickshaws and shining shoes or something?) but we'd have been stuck with Victorian poverty and an uneducated workforce who didn't stand a chance in the knowledge based economy. Plus rocketing crime. Really, there's no reason we couldn't have been more like Norway or the Netherlands where welfare has always been more generous, ppl work fewer hours, enjoy higher living standards and their economies are doing quite alright thankyouverymuch.

You have me pegged wrong then. I grew up in the generation where the 3 day work-week was the goal. Kellogg had the right idea for how to run a workforce, even though he was INSANE in evry other endeavor. It's the way I ran my own company.

What I am against is unrestrained welfare that is unconnected to a future of personal responsibility and is nothing but a vote getting machine for the liberals (please keep in mind that what passes for a liberal here isn't the same as over there).

Hand up, NOT hand out. How do you achieve that on a national level? We can debate that - if I knew the answer, I'd run for office.

[trainspotter9]

NO! Suicide should never be legal. It is absolutely the wrong thing.

What is pain? What is suffering? Nothing. If you do not fear death, these things are nothing. So if life is bad, you should let go of your fear of death and just live for joy. Work 20 years in the mines and enjoy the pain in your muscles. Study 20 years and re-educate yourself and enjoy the tedious labouring of digesting information. It is all a game, and one should go for the experience, for the thrill of pursueing something that could be earned.