[Mrs moose]

I've been doing some work on St. Augustine's ideas on coercion and he seems to imply that people's beliefs can genuinely be changed by manipulation of their social situation - throwing quicklime in their faces, burning down houses etc. I'm not convinced that they're not going to just say 'yeah I believe what he said,' but still maintain their original opinion.

[enLight]

I would say that certain circumstances can cause people to ignore their beliefs. And if this persists long enough, then they will eventually genuinely change what they believe.

But can coercion accomplish this? I doubt it. If anything, coercion against one's beliefs will cause one to fortify his confidence in what he believes. Although, he may try to hide what he believes in order to appear like he has changed (as a matter of safety).

[Boondock Saint]

But can coercion accomplish this? I doubt it. If anything, coercion against one's beliefs will cause one to fortify his confidence in what he believes. Although, he may try to hide what he believes in order to appear like he has changed (as a matter of safety).

I would disagree ...

Perhaps the individual pretends to adopt the new belief but the individuals offspring will be raised on these new beliefs so as to avoid further persecution.

One only needs to look at the cleansing of pagans done by the Catholics in Europe. The pagans were rather harmless and decentralized and worst of all, peaceful. But the Catholics came in and with an iron fist erased centuries and possibly a mellenia of beliefs ...

How?

No, not by some glorious greatness of some god ...

By burning those who did not obey, by erasing entire villages from the face of the earth. By forcing the pagans to abandon their gods or suffer a fate worse then death. And so while the very people who were adults at the time might have pretended ... one be sure that the offspring of those persecuted were raised as Christian, specifically Catholic.

One can even look at the attempt by the Catholic church to crush the Protestants when they first rose up ... fortunatly it would seem that some within the Church were capable of realizing the hypocrasy ...

So yes, coercion is a wonderful way to break the backs of the people and force your god or beliefs on them ... be those beliefs economic, social or otherwise.

[clownboy]

Boon is quite correct. Social coersion is indeed effective, especially when sustained and consistently administered. What more perfect tool for cadres of priests?

However, because a thing CAN be done, and effectively - doesn't mean it should be done. Just like life, the shortest path (most effective) is not always the best path to travel.

I see that modern Dems have taken a page from St. Augustine's book however.

[Xander]

It depends, mainly on what the beleif is, for instance in buddhism, one of the major standing points is that circumstances will change, and to expect them, in say, Christianity, it is that circumstances might change but god will always be there. thus when it seems god is turning away people loose faith.

[enLight]

Perhaps the individual pretends to adopt the new belief but the individuals offspring will be raised on these new beliefs so as to avoid further persecution.

I would say that the parents would raise their children to do the same as them - i.e. publicly appear to believe a certain way, but privately believe otherwise. It seems highly illogical for parents to genuinely raise their children on beliefs that they do not embrace. Now maybe through education from the government may affect the offspring's beliefs to contradict their parents', but there is a distinct difference between education and coercion.

One only needs to look at the cleansing of pagans done by the Catholics in Europe. The pagans were rather harmless and decentralized and worst of all, peaceful. But the Catholics came in and with an iron fist erased centuries and possibly a mellenia of beliefs ...

Many pagans went into hiding and waited for more tolerant times to resurrect their beliefs. Read: the resurgence of the New Age movement. It's similar to homosexuals going 'underground' when their practices were socially unacceptable.

[Boondock Saint]

I would say that the parents would raise their children to do the same as them - i.e. publicly appear to believe a certain way, but privately believe otherwise. It seems highly illogical for parents to genuinely raise thier children on beliefs that they do not embrace.

Children have loose tongues and poor self control. Why take the risk? Besides children can be indocrinated by those other then their own parents and may very well turn on their parents if given the chance.

Sorry Light but Catholicisms success in Europe proves my point, as does Christianity being spread throught the world. It wasnt through some blessed event that crushed paganism and that new age movement thing is an attempt to rediscover the old religions ... not a coming out of the closet for closet pagans.

And logic doesnt come into play when we are talking about the middle ages and people burning witches at the stake for not believing in Christ ...

And even to this day pagans are still looked down upon by many and mocked by more. And when leaders talk about god they say god as in one ...

Paganism was crushed beneath the boot of monotheism, I do not pin it only on Christians of course not ... Islam has crushed paganism as well ...

But history shows us and proves that the will of mankind can indeed be broken and at times has.

[enLight]

Sorry Light but Catholicisms success in Europe proves my point, as does Christianity being spread throught the world.

Well I suppose I must concede to that fact. But I'm not entirely convinced that coercion was the driving force.

But I will say that coercion did not make the pagans believe in Christianity, it just casued them to stop practicing their paganism, which in turn erroded their belief in it. I think what caused pagans to genuinely believe Christianity was not forced coercion, but rather persuasion (and, of course scare tactics of going to hell).

So I will agree that coercion can stop beliefs over time, but I'm still not convinced that it can cause people to genuinely believe something.

[Boondock Saint]

So I will agree that coercion can stop beliefs over time, but I'm still not convinced that it can cause people to genuinely believe something.

Come on man ... now its semantics ...

Dancing around the bush ...

When you take a persons beliefs away, making them punishable by death and then telling them that they must worship your god then you are indeed replacing their beliefs.

Now ... as I have said the initial generation that is being forced into this new religion may hold their old beliefs but the children who are indocrinated have known nothing else and have no reason to believe in anything else. I would dare say chidlren learned how evil witch craft is by watching witches burn at the stake or hearing about the evil witch who waits in a ginger bread house in order to cook little children ...

You dont need to force adults into a new belief when you can indoctrinate children from the start ...

Humans only live so long and with the last generation of the pagans dies the beliefs ...

And I would say the threat of hell is near enough to coercion ...