[Warrior Monk]

Is that plural?

PLURAL?

Is there an s attached there?

Is there more then one immortal being that we don't know about?

Yes that is plural, you're quite the observant one aren't you? Our souls are immortal. Some will go to heaven and some will be damned to hell by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ where they will burn in lakes of fire and sulfur for the rest of eternity.

You didnt capitalize Christian ... how can one such as you not capitalize Christ? Your a fake. You capitalize Nietzche but not Christ ... heh ...

I didn't capitalize a c in the middle of a word...

Oh and you left out antiIslamic ... or did you not know that the Muslims are also the children of of the god of Ibrahim?

Allah is the pagan moon god. Not a god at all but a false idol.

[Noumenon]

Yes that is plural, you're quite the observant one aren't you? Our souls are immortal. Some will go to heaven and some will be damned to hell by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ where they will burn in lakes of fire and sulfur for the rest of eternity.

And you know this how? Let me get this right...the man who advocated turning the other cheek and forgiveness is going to ruthlessly torture people for all eternity? The "logic" of you religious folk really is astounding.

Allah is the pagan moon god. Not a god at all but a false idol.

What makes the Bible any more valid than the Quran? They are both just books, and there is no way of independently verifying the truth of either one. For example, say that today a book was written that claimed a giant purple space monkey is the creator, and tomorrow another book claimed that a giant red space monkey is the creator. Since there is no way to independently find out whether the creator was a red monkey or a purple monkey, which one is true is anyone's guess. It is rather silly to believe in one rather than the other, since they are both equally (in)valid.

Rape is Evil because the Lord God says so in the Bible.

Anyone who says morality is subjective should be tortured until they admit that torture is Objectively Evil. If not they should be gassed and burned -- their ashes scattered -- food for bacteria and worms.

So rape was okay before the Bible was written? What if someone had never heard of the Bible? Is rape okay for them?

What if God changes his mind, and says now that rape is good? Isn't morality then subjective, because it depends on God's whims?

[Warrior Monk]

Yes that is plural, you're quite the observant one aren't you? Our souls are immortal. Some will go to heaven and some will be damned to hell by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ where they will burn in lakes of fire and sulfur for the rest of eternity.

And you know this how?

I know this because God says so in the Bible...

How do you know that you are not a brain in a vat like the Matrix? How do you know that an unit is equal to one? How do you know that the interior angles of an equilateral triangle are equal to two right angles? How do you know that the sky is blue?

Let me get this right...the man who advocated turning the other cheek and forgiveness is going to ruthlessly torture people for all eternity? The "logic" of you religious folk really is astounding.

It's actually Satan that does the torturing. The Lord just does the damning of souls.

What makes the Bible any more valid than the Quran?

The fact that the Bible is the Word of the Lord God, whereas the pedophile, rapist, mass murderer Mohammed claims the Satanic Verses of the Koran were inspired by Satan. And also the fact that the Bible is self-evidently true to any moral and rational person, whereas the hateful Satan inspired Koran is self-evidently false and immoral.

The Koran teaches:

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship will become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers." Sura 5:51

The Lord Jesus Christ teaches:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy...but I say love your enemies..." Matthew 5:43-44

The Koran teaches:

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." Sura 9:73

"The punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger [all non-Muslims] is execution or crucifixion or the amputation of hands and feet from opposite sides [of the body] or exile...." (Koran 5:33)

A Sudanese slave had his arm amputated for disobeying his Muslim masters


"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

They are both just books, and there is no way of independently verifying the truth of either one.

Except that one was inspired by God and Goodness and one was inspired by Satan and Evil.

For example, say that today a book was written that claimed a giant purple space monkey is the creator, and tomorrow another book claimed that a giant red space monkey is the creator.

Good and God's will are self-evident to any rational human being.

Since there is no way to independently find out whether the creator was a red monkey or a purple monkey, which one is true is anyone's guess.

You would be able to judge which was good and which was evil based on Scripture. Most likely both would've been sent by Satan.

So rape was okay before the Bible was written?

Of course not.

What if someone had never heard of the Bible? Is rape okay for them?

Ignorance is no justification for Satanism.

What if God changes his mind, and says now that rape is good? Isn't morality then subjective, because it depends on God's whims?

That is the exact same argument Satan used to inspire the fallen angels to rebel and make war in heaven.

[Noumenon]

Should've known better than to try to have a rational discussion with a true believer, it really is no use. But here it goes anyway:

I know this because God says so in the Bible...

Can you say "circular logic"?

-"How do you know the Bible is the truth?"

-"Because God says so."

-"How do you know God even exists?"

-"Because Bible is true."

-"How do you know the Bible is the truth?"

...and so it goes. That is why its nearly impossible to reason with people like you.

How do you know that you are not a brain in a vat like the Matrix?

It may be, but probably not. The Bible may be true, but I have no reason to think that is more likely than the Quran or the book about giant space monkeys being true.

While I admit the possibility of my brain being in a vat or the Bible being true, thats not enough reason to actually believe it. Do you believe our brains are actually in vats just because its possible?

How do you know that an unit is equal to one?

"Unit" is just a word. It means whatever people say it means. If people say it equals two, then it equals two.

How do you know that the interior angles of an equilateral triangle are equal to two right angles?

Actually, the "equilateral" part isn't necessary. All triangles, including equilateral, are equal to two right angles. I can know this a priori, it is logically impossible for it to be otherwise. If they did not equal each other, then either those are not truly right angles or that is not truly an triangle.

How do you know that the sky is blue?

I don't. For all I know, my color perception could be screwed up and what I call "blue" is actually green.

It's actually Satan that does the torturing. The Lord just does the damning of souls.

Damning someone to eternity in hell certainly isnt very forgiving...

The fact that the Bible is the Word of the Lord God, whereas the pedophile, rapist, mass murderer Mohammed claims the Satanic Verses of the Koran were inspired by Satan. And also the fact that the Bible is self-evidently true to any moral and rational person, whereas the hateful Satan inspired Koran is self-evidently false and immoral.

The Bible certainly isn't all love and flowers either. I'm sure some more familiar with it than me could point those sections out to you.

A Sudanese slave had his arm amputated for disobeying his Muslim masters

And much worse has been done in the name of Christianity. Witch trials anyone? Crusades?

Good and God's will are self-evident to any rational human being.

So you would know God's will even if the Bible was never written? If its self evident, you shouldn't need to depend on the Bible to tell you what it is.

So rape was okay before the Bible was written?

-Of course not.

You obviously see something wrong in rape besides God saying its wrong. You might want to read my arguments on why rape is wrong, earlier in the thread.

That is the exact same argument Satan used to inspire the fallen angels to rebel and make war in heaven.

When an argument threatens your belief system, just claim Satan created the argument. Great rational thinking...not. This is the equivalent of saying "nahnahnahnah!! I can't hear you!!!" Utterly childish. I would expect more from an adult, assuming you are one.

[Warrior Monk]

The Bible may be true, but I have no reason to think that is more likely than the Quran or the book about giant space monkeys being true.

If you're an ignorant Agnostic why are you attacking me like a Satanic Atheist? Because I have faith and you don't?

While I admit the possibility of my brain being in a vat or the Bible being true, thats not enough reason to actually believe it.

While I admit the possibility that God doesn't exist, that's not enough for me to actually believe it.

Do you believe our brains are actually in vats just because its possible?

No. Do you believe the universe is uncaused?

"Unit" is just a word. It means whatever people say it means. If people say it equals two, then it equals two.

So is God just a word. If people say the cause of the universe is God then the cause of the universe is God.

Actually, the "equilateral" part isn't necessary. All triangles, including equilateral, are equal to two right angles. I can know this a priori, it is logically impossible for it to be otherwise. If they did not equal each other, then either those are not truly right angles or that is not truly an triangle.

Do the names Lobachevsky and Riemann ring a bell? I should've known not to try to have a rational discussion with someone who has no knowledge of mathematics.

And much worse has been done in the name of Christianity. Witch trials anyone? Crusades?

Do I need to remind you that this is a Politics thread about the world we live in in 2004 and not an Ancient History forum about a world we will never experience?

[Noumenon]

If you're an ignorant Agnostic why are you attacking me like a Satanic Atheist? Because I have faith and you don't?

Wrong on both counts. I'm a Deist, but thats not because I have faith. I am simply very convinced by the Kalam argument for a creator's existance. Basically, this is how it goes:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2. The Universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the Universe has a cause of its existence.

To support premise 2, I would argue that actual infinity is impossible within this universe. Therefore it is a logical imposibility for the universe to actually stretch infinitely back in time, since there would have to be an infinite number of seconds, hours, days etc in the past. And therefore the universe must have had a beginning.

If someone could convince me that actual infinity exists in this universe, then I would have no problem becoming an agnostic.

Also, what gave you the idea that I was Satanic? Believing in Satan seems just as silly to me as believing in the Christian God.

While I admit the possibility that God doesn't exist, that's not enough for me to actually believe it.

This is the equivalent of saying "well I admit the possibility of a giant space monkey not existing, I'm still gonna believe it does until you prove otherwise." It is impossible to prove a negative. I can't prove to you that a giant space monkey doesn't exist, and I can't even show you evidence that it doesn't exist. But I take the default position that it probably doesn't, until you can convince me otherwise. This is the correct default position for a logical, thinking person. A rational person cannot just believe any extraordinary claim that he hears until someone proves that claim is wrong. That is insanity. Insane people will believe that the government is after them with no evidence, and they must be convinced otherwise. Only an insane person will buy the extraordinary claim that a giant space monkey exists without needing to be convinced. You are making an extraordinary claim by saying God exists. Prove it.

No. Do you believe the universe is uncaused?

Already answered this.

So is God just a word. If people say the cause of the universe is God then the cause of the universe is God.

Thats right. As I said, I believe a creator exists, or at least existed. If you want to call that creator God, then I believe God exists. However, I don't believe your idea of God exists. I have no reason to believe that what the Bible says about the nature of God is true.

Do the names Lobachevsky and Riemann ring a bell? I should've known not to try to have a rational discussion with someone who has no knowledge of mathematics.

I've taken enough math to know that if an object doesn't have angles equal to 180 degrees, its not a triangle. If you disagree, show me a triangle with degrees totalling to a different number. I also know that by definition, two right angles equal 180 degrees. The only way for a triangle's degrees to not be equal to two right angles is if you change the definition of one or the other.

Do I need to remind you that this is a Politics thread about the world we live in in 2004 and not an Ancient History forum about a world we will never experience?

But the fact that bad things were done in the name of Islam does not prove the Quran is evil any more than the fact that bad things were done in the name of Christianity proves that the Bible is evil. The time at which these things were done is irrelevant.

[Warrior Monk]

If you're an ignorant Agnostic why are you attacking me like a Satanic Atheist? Because I have faith and you don't?

Wrong on both counts. I'm a Deist, but thats not because I have faith. I am simply very convinced by the Kalam argument for a creator's existance. Basically, this is how it goes:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2. The Universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the Universe has a cause of its existence.

To support premise 2, I would argue that actual infinity is impossible within this universe. Therefore it is a logical imposibility for the universe to actually stretch infinitely back in time, since there would have to be an infinite number of seconds, hours, days etc in the past. And therefore the universe must have had a beginning.

So why in God's name are you arguing with me?

If someone could convince me that actual infinity exists in this universe, then I would have no problem becoming an agnostic.

Units are infinitely divisible. In fact the entire universe is infinitely small in terms of decrease... Wow! That's all it took for me to convince you to reject your alleged Deism and belief in the Cosmological argument? I hope you don't treat women like you treat your philosophies.

You are making an extraordinary claim by saying God exists. Prove it.

You are making an extraordinary claim that God does not exist. Prove it.

If you want to call that creator God, then I believe God exists. However, I don't believe your idea of God exists.

Why not?

I have no reason to believe that what the Bible says about the nature of God is true.

Why not?

I've taken enough math to know that if an object doesn't have angles equal to 180 degrees, its not a triangle. If you disagree, show me a triangle with degrees totalling to a different number. I also know that by definition, two right angles equal 180 degrees. The only way for a triangle's degrees to not be equal to two right angles is if you change the definition of one or the other.

How do you prove Euclid's Fifth Postulate? For that matter, how do you prove that a line can be extended indefinitely? And how do you prove that a point is that which has no part? Or that an unit is equal to one? You don't prove them. You accept them as principles based on blind faith. So it is with Judeo-Christians and the Lord God.

But the fact that bad things were done in the name of Islam does not prove the Quran is evil any more than the fact that bad things were done in the name of Christianity proves that the Bible is evil. The time at which these things were done is irrelevant.

I suggest you read the Koran quotes posted above. I don't know how anyone could describe those as good. Furthermore Mohammed was an illiterate mass murdering pedophile who began raping Aisha when she was only 8 years old. By the pedophiles own admission the entire Koran was inspired by Satan. Why do you think Salman Rushdie has a death sentence on his head?

[U-235]

Your offensive fascist antisemitic and antichristian hate speech has little effect on me.

Anyone who says morality is subjective should be tortured until they admit that torture is Objectively Evil. If not they should be gassed and burned -- their ashes scattered -- food for bacteria and worms.

pagan moon god

Jesus Fu**ing Christ
There is a rootbeer dripping of my computer screen and my chair has toppled over.

[Noumenon]

So why in God's name are you arguing with me?

As I said, I believe there was a creator, but I don't believe the Christian God exists.

Units are infinitely divisible. In fact the entire universe is infinitely small in terms of decrease... Wow! That's all it took for me to convince you to reject your alleged Deism and belief in the Cosmological argument? I hope you don't treat women you like you treat your philosophies.

It'll take a little more than that. True, in theory you could keep on dividing a unit forever, but can you actually do it? At what point have you reached an infinite number of divisions? It is equally impossible to have an infinite number of seconds, hours, etc in the past. Show me an example of anything that is actually infinite in the universe. Is there an infinite pile of rocks out there? Sure, in theory you could just keep on putting rocks in the pile, but at any given point all you have is a finite number of rocks. You have never reached infinity. Infinity is only an abstract concept in the mind, it does not actually exist.

You are making an extraordinary claim that God does not exist. Prove it.

Didn't I just say it was impossible to prove a negative (unless that negative is logically impossible)? You are proposing a positive claim ("God does exist") so it is up to you to prove it. This is so basic, why can't you understand that concept?

If you want to call that creator God, then I believe God exists. However, I don't believe your idea of God exists.

Why not?

Because you offer no convincing evidence to support your position.

I have no reason to believe that what the Bible says about the nature of God is true.

Why not?

Again, you offer no evidence that the Bible is truth.

How do you prove Euclid's Fifth Postulate? For that matter, how do you prove that a line can be extended indefinitely? And how do you prove that a point is that which has no part? Or that an unit is equal to one? You don't prove them. You accept them as principles based on blind faith. So it is with Judeo-Christians and the Lord God.

Two fundamentally different things. Math works entirely in world of ideas. There is no need to prove that an actual straight line can exist (which it probably can't) or that a point can actually be extended indefinitely (actually infinity is impossible, so it can't). In theory they can, and thats all that matters in mathematics. You don't accept that on blind faith, they do actually work in theory. That is demonstrable.

The claim that God exists is entirely different. If you were to limit this to ideas only, of course the idea of God exists. But you are claiming he exists in reality. That may or may not actually be true. You're going to have to demonstrate somehow that it is true before I'll believe it. You can't expect me to accept on blind faith any positive claim you make.

I suggest you read the Koran quotes posted above. I don't know how anyone could describe those as good. Furthermore Mohammed was an illiterate mass murdering pedophile who began raping Aisha when she was only 8 years old. By the pedophiles own admission the entire Koran was inspired by Satan. Why do you think Salman Rushdie has a death sentence on his head?

I agree with you that Jesus was probably a better person that Mohammed, assuming that what the Bible and the Quran say about them is true. But again, I have no reason to believe either of them are true.

[Warrior Monk]

You are positing a negative claim "God does not exist." If God does not exist then why do you claim to be a Deist? This is so basic. Why can't you understand it?

You offer no evidence that God does not exist.

You offer no evidence that the universe is uncaused.

You offer no evidence that anything in the Bible is false.

At least you agree that the Koran is self-evidently false.

[Noumenon]

You are positing a negative claim "God does not exist." If God does not exist then why do you claim to be a Deist? This is so basic. Why can't you understand it?

A Deist believes there is a creator, but he doesn't believe in God necessarily. You assume God and creator mean the same thing, but they do not. For all I know, the creator might have been female, or there might have been more than one creator.

You offer no evidence that God does not exist.

Do I need to offer evidence that giant space monkeys do not exist? Of course not, a rational person has the default belief that they do not exist, until evidence shows otherwise.

You offer no evidence that the universe is uncaused.

Didn't I say that I believed there was a creator? I'm positive I did. In fact, I was trying to prove the universe was caused. That deist argument might actually help you out in proving there is a God.

You offer no evidence that anything in the Bible is false.

At least you agree that the Koran is self-evidently false.

Neither the Bible or the Quran are self-evidently false. Probably false, yes, but there is the distant possibility that one or the other might be true. Again, I don't need to offer evidence that anything in the Bible is false. You are making the positive claim that something in the Bible is true, so you must offer evidence.

[Warrior Monk]

You are positing a negative claim "God does not exist." If God does not exist then why do you claim to be a Deist? This is so basic. Why can't you understand it?

A Deist believes there is a creator, but he doesn't believe in God necessarily. You assume God and creator mean the same thing, but they do not. For all I know, the creator might have been female, or there might have been more than one creator.

There can't be more than one creator because there is only one First Cause. You can't have First Causes causing eachother. That's absurd.

Do I need to offer evidence that giant space monkeys do not exist?

I wouldn't be so prejudiced and quick to leap to conclusions about which you know nothing. Do you have any idea how big the universe is? Any idea how many galaxies and planets with life on them? Let's just say it's infinite because God is a perfect being and infinitely creative.

Of course not, a rational person has the default belief that they do not exist, until evidence shows otherwise.

Why? If I know that God is infinitely creative and that time is infinite in the forward direction, then I can be pretty sure that space monkey's DO EXIST! Just not in our system or in our time period.

That deist argument might actually help you out in proving there is a God.

The Deist argument DOES PROVE IT.

How did the universe get here? I can't wait for you to make a positive statement so I can tell you to prove it.

[Maxim Litvinov]

The universe doesn't exist, so how can it have been created?

[Warrior Monk]

The universe doesn't exist

Spoken like a true Leftist.

[Noumenon]

There can't be more than one creator because there is only one First Cause. You can't have First Causes causing eachother. That's absurd.

But you admit the possibility of a female creator? What if the creator was actually a giant space monkey?

Do I need to offer evidence that giant space monkeys do not exist?

I wouldn't be so prejudiced and quick to leap to conclusions about which you know nothing. Do you have any idea how big the universe is? Any idea how many galaxies and planets with life on them? Let's just say it's infinite because God is a perfect being and infinitely creative.

I admit the possibility, but I'm not going to believe there is one until I see it.

Why? If I know that God is infinitely creative and that time is infinite in the forward direction, then I can be pretty sure that space monkey's DO EXIST! Just not in our system or in our time period.

Time is not infinite in the foward direction, infinity is impossible. And who told you the creator is infinitely creative? Don't you think that the creator has better things to do than create absolutely everything possible there is to create?

The Deist argument DOES PROVE IT.

How did the universe get here? I can't wait for you to make a positive statement so I can tell you to prove it.

Ok, if the deist argument proves it, why do you still insist that infinity exists? If infinity exists, then the argument is null.

[Monkey Angst]

But you admit the possibility of a female creator? What if the creator was actually a giant space monkey?

Well, the idea that the creator is a thing -- like a space monkey, or a man, or a woman -- is problematic, isn't it. If it is a monkey -- four limbs, tail, fur, physical existence, etc -- then where did it come from? I don't think any idea of a creator that is made, as we are, of atoms and molecules makes any sense.

[Noumenon]

Well, the idea that the creator is a thing -- like a space monkey, or a man, or a woman -- is problematic, isn't it. If it is a monkey -- four limbs, tail, fur, physical existence, etc -- then where did it come from? I don't think any idea of a creator that is made, as we are, of atoms and molecules makes any sense.

It is impossible to know whether the creator had to be created itself. We don't know the physical laws that existed before the universe, they might be totally different. For example, maybe there was no time before the universe. If that were the case, then the creator would have had no beginning, and he would not have been created.

You're right that maybe the creator wasn't a thing at all. The only things that can exist in this universe are matter and energy, but some other form might have existed before the universe.

[Monkey Angst]

You're right that maybe the creator wasn't a thing at all. The only things that can exist in this universe are matter and energy, but some other form might have existed before the universe.

When dealing with a concept like God, there are going to be a lot of concepts that don't apply the way we think they do. For instance, God would have to have no beginning. I can't comprehend something without a beginning. My mind keeps asking questions like a child... "What was before that?" "OK, what was before that?" "And before that?" The idea that there is something that was always there is impossible to me. On the other hand, the idea of the universe beginning is likewise impossible. Began with what? If it began with someone, where did they come from? Is there another universe? If so, how did it begin? Ad nauseam.