[chrisprice]

In formulating a position on any topic, it is important to understand what all positions are asserting. In terms of Affirmative Action, I am not sure I understand both sides sufficiently. Please correct my (off-the-cuff) formulation if needed:

Affirmative Action is an attempt to equalize racial injustice by encouraging institutions to include under-represented races.

I purposely didn't put any positive or negative spins on it because I am looking for a value-neutral formulation. If we can come up with one, it is only then that I would like to see a debate. My hope is that the result is a debate on the same topic, rather than being all over the place due to misconceptions.

thanks

[Todd D.]

I would say that is more or less correct. I don't think anyone can ever say that the motive behind affirmative action is not a noble one, because certainly it is. I think that it's the methods that it employs that people disagree with.

[SpiderMonkey]

Affirmitive action is like putting a plaster on a a bullet wound. It might deal with some of the symptoms but it doesn't do anything about the root of the problem.

The Americans I know give me the impression of a country with a deeply burried but very definite streak of racism. Giving black people jobs won't stop them being secretly hated by some white people.

[Goranhammer]

Affirmative Action is the ultimate in "fighting fire with fire". A true businessman in this day and age would not compromise his company by hiring a less qualified white man, simply based on that. It's easy to get caught up in stereotypes, but if someone gets to that level of business, you have to expect a level of professionalism. Two men, a white man and a black man, both going for a college-educated position in a company probably walk the same line. Sure, it's possible that the black man could have a bachelors but still snort a gram of coke a week and do drive-bys on the weekends, but not likely. I for one, being business-oriented, would take my chance on that.

But forcing someone to hire a black person because he is black is just as racist as the unwritten rule they're trying to suppress. This is 99% of the reason why I think I did not get into the Ann Arbor (main campus) of the University of Michigan. There was (not sure if there still is) a big AA issue when I was trying to get in, and I'd be willing to bet my transcripts glowed in comparison to some of the black people getting in, and I was passed up. Turn about as fair play? I think not. Slavery's been abolished for quite some time now, and the world should act fair. Those were different times, and I hope we learned our mistakes.

Affirmative Action should be made unconstitutional, because quite simply it is. If there was a black C.E.O. the same slant toward favortism could still exist. If it does, so be it. There are more than plenty of corporations out there who view you as how much of an asset you can be instead of what color your skin is.

[Visage of Glory]

I really don't like Affirmative Action. I think things should be based strictly on credentials, not on what race a person is. I think it is just as unfair and discriminatory to those white people that are more highly qualified to hire someone because they are "under-representated."

I understand that there may be some racism, but I think the main reason that they are not adequately represented is not mainly from rascism, but simply because there are not as many qualified people. Look at pro sports for an example, escpecially the NBA. What is the ratio of black to white players in the NBA? I am not sure of the numbers, but I am pretty sure that there are more black players than white. That does not match up well against the nation as a whole. Does that mean the NBA teams should be forced to hire more less skilled white players? I don't think so. The teams want to make as much money as they can by providing the best entertainment possible. That means hiring the best players for the job. They don't care if they are black, white, or Asian. I am sure that if Affirmative Action was in place in Pro Sports, the quality of the games would go down significantly. They would have to hire a bunch of less skilled and untalented white guys. It does not make sense.

Now, I am not saying that all white guys are smarter than the black, and white guys are terrible at sports and physical labor. I am just saying hire the best person for the job. Race should not matter at all. Just go for the person who seems to be most qualified and fit for the job.

[liberalist]

I think it is just as unfair and discriminatory to those white people that are more highly qualified to hire someone because they are "under-representated."

Im not on either side of this debate, but I am pretty sure that Affirmatibe action is not employing someone because they are under-represented. Isnt it more to do with trying to equalise white-black relations and acknowledging that Americas history of rascism has long lasting legacies? I though A.A. was trying to remove the legacy of this rascism.

[Visage of Glory]

Affirmative Action is an attempt to equalize racial injustice by encouraging institutions to include under-represented races.

That is how the statement was originally given. That is always how I have seen and understood it. He did say we can change it, but I think this is an adequate description of it.

[chrisprice]

Thanks for the attention. I'm not sure I really gave you much to go on. I guess my formulation is probably as generic as you can get, but not too informative as to the real world. Let me ask the question this way:

Assuming that there is/was rampant racism in this country, and the “powers that be” are less likely to hire minorities, should there be policies that a. encourage these "powers" to hire more minorities or b. require these "powers" to hire more minorities?

Secondly, if a qualified "over-represented" and "under-represented" member of a people group apply for the same position (be it employment or education), is it wrong to give the position to the under-represented person even if the other one is better qualified? I don't see a problem choosing the under-represented person when they are similarly qualified (to counter inequities), but I question whether it is acceptable when the under-represented person is chosen over the other when he or she is merely qualified. The complaint could be made that this trades one problem for another: equal representation for mediocrity.

Of course there is the whole issue of forcing a private owner to hire someone that he doesn’t want to. That just seems odd. Of course it is sad and ugly (and probably dysfunctional) that he doesn’t like a particular race, but why should he have to hire someone from that race just because that person is under-represented in the community/industry?

Sorry, did I just balloon the topic?

[Noumenon]

Assuming that there is/was rampant racism in this country, and the “powers that be” are less likely to hire minorities, should there be policies that a. encourage these "powers" to hire more minorities or b. require these "powers" to hire more minorities?

Theres a little thing called "freedom of association" in our constitution. Any attempt to force people to associate with (i.e. hire) certain groups of people is blatantly unconstitutional. If a white person wants to start to club for only white people, he has the right to do that, doesn't he? Why is it any different if he decides to start a company that only hires white people? What if an asian restaurant only wanted to hire asians for the correct atmosphere? Shouldn't they have the right to do that?

On the other hand, freedom of association makes it perfectly legal for companies to implement affirmative action, but it must be of their own free will.

[Visage of Glory]

People should be free to hire anyone they please. It is just usually in their best interest to hire someone who is most qualified. If someone is rascist, I see no reason to make them hire someone they don't want to. In fact, I think it would be hard to work for or learn under someone who did not like me, for whatever reason, especially when they may be bitter from being forced to accept me.

[The Flaming Jalapeno]

I personally am more for the idea of making Affirmative Action based on income and class instead of race.

[chrisprice]

I personally am more for the idea of making Affirmative Action based on income and class instead of race.

Could you elaborate on what that would be like? Give a rough policy?

[The Flaming Jalapeno]

If you get good grades/good SAT/ACT scores/strong reccomendations to go to college, but you can't afford to go, then the government helps you out. The less you have, the more the government would help pay the tuition. You have to be qualified, of couse.

[Visage of Glory]

If you get good grades/good SAT/ACT scores/strong reccomendations to go to college, but you can't afford to go, then the government helps you out. The less you have, the more the government would help pay the tuition. You have to be qualified, of couse

They already do something like that in the major colleges like Yale. If you are accepted to the school, the money you recieve is need-based. I don't think the government provides the money, but that is not what it should be.

[The Flaming Jalapeno]

Many colleges offer financial support to low-income families. I just believe it should be a national movement.

[chrisprice]

But the issue has to do with a particular race and past inequalities. That a particular race was held back is supposed to justify that they should be pushed along. What is wrong with this?

[fastspawn]

But the issue has to do with a particular race and past inequalities. That a particular race was held back is supposed to justify that they should be pushed along. What is wrong with this?

I don't think the justification for Affirmative Action is because of past actions, but rather an equalization of society.

However, what i feel is that equalizing based on race is wrong, instead class should be a factor. However it is difficult to determine class, and so Racial Affirmative Action was borne out of the fact that class inequality is entrenched firmly into racial status.

When the time comes, when someone can determine a fairer method of alleviating people from the cycle of poverty, hopefully that plan can be implemented.

[The Flaming Jalapeno]

^^^ What fastspawn said.