[Locke]

By MARK THIESSEN
Associated Press Writer

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Researchers say that Mormons have continued to posthumously baptize Jewish Holocaust victims into their faith despite a promise to discontinue the practice.

"We are very hopeful that we will be able to convince the church to stop," Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, said Friday. If not, Michel said, his group will consider other options, "possibly legal steps."

Church spokesman Dale Bills said in a statement Friday evening that church officials "do not know what may come of these discussions, but we welcome the involvement of any who seek to resolve amicably the concerns expressed by some of our Jewish friends."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.

The practice is primarily intended to give salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.

"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that the denomination stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said on Friday that the process still hasn't ended.

She said she has found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.

Mormon leaders reaffirmed the 1995 pact in December 2002, after Radkey found at least 20,000 Jews in the church's International Genealogical Index. The church says proxy baptisms have been performed for nearly every one of the 400 million names in the database.

"The Jews have to either accept what the Mormons are doing or take legal action," Radkey said.

Michel's group asked Sen. Hillary Clinton to intervene in the matter and the New York Democrat met last month with Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and LDS member, though neither side would comment on the session.

The church directed its members after the 1995 agreement to not include the names of unrelated persons, celebrities and non-approved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims, for the baptisms, according to documentation the Mormon church provided Friday to The Associated Press.

The church also assumes that the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.

The pact, however, "did not guarantee that no future vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would occur," according to church documents.

In a Nov. 14, 2003, letter, church elder D. Todd Christofferson wrote Michel that the church did not agree to find and remove the names of all deceased Jews in its database of 400 million names. "That would be an impossible undertaking," Christofferson wrote.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/storie ... TE=DEFAULT

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This story is very odd... I don't know how I feel about it... any thoughts?

[Truth-a-naut]

So they baptize the dead body?



Does a body even count as a person?

[Todd D.]

Mormon doctrine has always baptized the dead. I believe that they have even baptized Adolph Hitler, under the premise of showing the kind of extreme forgiveness that Jesus showed, though that could be an urban myth.

[Visage of Glory]

They do not baptize dead bodies. They baptize the dead through proxy. I do not want to give you the specifics, but basically worthy members of the church are baptized by priesthood holders in the temple to give those people in the spirit world the opportunity to accept the true Gospel.

On topic, I don't see any reason to prevent us from doing it. If we are right, they will appreciate it. If we are wrong, it won't change anything. Of course, this is from the aspect of a member of the LDS churhch, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Steven_K]

On topic, I don't see any reason to prevent us from doing it. If we are right, they will appreciate it. If we are wrong, it won't change anything. Of course, this is from the aspect of a member of the LDS churhch, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

In addition, it is very useful for tracking geneology. Keep up the good work in that department!

[Tigerlily]

Wow. I never heard that before. That's realy weird. How do they baptise by proxy?

I wouldn't want them doing that to me.

[Monkey Angst]

I wouldn't want them doing that to me.

I'm willing to bet you'll be beyond caring by that point.

My question for the Jews who object to it is this: Do you believe that this baptism is valid, that is, do you believe that God will take into account that this posthumous baptism has taken place and put the soul of the dead into the Christian column? I would think that this would not be a tenet of the Jewish faith, and that from a Jewish perspective this amounts to nothing more than a bunch of people sitting around, probably in Utah, doing nothing. So where's the problem? If you are a Jew in life you are not going to be made a Mormon just by some Mormon saying you are.

[Visage of Glory]

Wow. I never heard that before. That's realy weird. How do they baptise by proxy?

I wouldn't want them doing that to me.

We get your name well after you are dead, make sure you are a real person, put the names into the Temple. That is where a worthy Melchezidek Priesthood holder baptizes another worthy member saying something to effect of I baptize you in and for the behalf of...whoever.

While you may not savor the idea right now, I think you will appreciate it when you die. But even then, it does not make you member automatically. You still have to accept it yourself. Just because a person is baptized by proxy does not mean they actually accept the Gospel. They must do that by themselves in the Spirit world.

[Mycroft]

I wouldn't want them doing that to me.

I'm willing to bet you'll be beyond caring by that point.

My question for the Jews who object to it is this: Do you believe that this baptism is valid, that is, do you believe that God will take into account that this posthumous baptism has taken place and put the soul of the dead into the Christian column? I would think that this would not be a tenet of the Jewish faith, and that from a Jewish perspective this amounts to nothing more than a bunch of people sitting around, probably in Utah, doing nothing. So where's the problem? If you are a Jew in life you are not going to be made a Mormon just by some Mormon saying you are.

I don't think the issue is belief or not, but involuntary inclusion in a religious ceremony of a tradition that is not your own. While I wouldn't be offended myself, I can see how someone else might find it offensive.

[Mark]

If the Jews don't believe that Mormonism is true then surely the fact we do the work is irrelevant.



I stress: We do not baptise dead bodies.


And what Visage of Glory said was right. It's up to the person if they accept the work or not.


EDIT: also, like the article said, if next of kin is alive, they don't get work done without permission.