[Zamuel]

The Qur'an is 100% anti-honor culture.

No, Islam is quite honorable ... it's chief postulation is submission to god ... Which is essentially the basis of honor. The concept adapts itself to many semantic formats. It is a system to test the reality of moral imperatives. It presumes that the true natural order will prevail and tests conflicting viewpoints to destruction. The dedication of men to "honor" is the highest calling and demands they be prepared to sacrifice their lives to guide the world ...

It has of course been distilled and distorted ... applied to mundane circumstances by lesser men attempting to claim it's distinction. Codified and manipulated to maintain artificial social constructs. But the willingness to put ones life on the line to establish the true and proper future, beyond the kin of rhetoric and reason, remains a stark reality and engenders respect that goes far beyond the romantic.

Semper fi.

Zam

[Hong Wu]

Yeah, that's something I was thinking. I'm sure the Muslim definition of honor varies in some ways from pagan Arab and other conceptions of honor, but to say that it's anti-honor doesn't make sense to me.

[mikema63]

Well, you could just say that the branch of Islam that Dagoth is part of is different than how other groups of muslims practice the religion.

Anyway, honor is a word applied to a set of values that are no longer generally practived but pretty heavily romanticized.

[Rich]

The Qur'an is 100% anti-honor culture, as it was a deeply ingrained aspect of Pagan Arabia. Islam's failure to fully eradicate that scourge is a black-eye for all of us.

Islam is all about honour as was Christianty. In fact Monotheism could best be described as a study in BDSM (Bondage Domination and Sado Masochism). You can particularly see this the writings of St Paul where the themes of pride and humiliation are prominent. Its my belief that it was St Paul who invented the idea of Jesus being crucified, before Paul it was believed that Jesus died. Later story tellers moved the location of Jesus's death from the lower heavenly realms down to Earth. But regardless of that what is undeniable is that Paul emphasises the humiliation of Jesus not his suffering.

If you are a normal western middle man you are very unlikely to get raped. In gang culture raping men is common. And all pre-modern cultures had a tendency to be gang cultures. Pre modern life was ridden with humiliation. The essential Monotheist deal is that the believer sublimates him self to his religion in return he gets the pride and dignity of the greater whole. This is why Muhammadans (aka Muslims) get so upset when people insult Mohammed. When you insult Mohammed of course you're insulting Mohammedans, taking pride in Mohamed ,ego displacement is the whole point of it. Once you grasp the centrality of Ego displacement in Monotheism the its no surprise that the religion of the meek, burned Witches, created the inquisition and when on bloody crusades and pogrom fests and its no surprise that the religion of peace blows people up on Tubes demands respect and pushes school girls back into burning buildings to protect their modesty.

People often talk about celebrity culture as if its something new as if Mohamed, saints, Hercules and Thor weren't celebrity figures. As if displacing your egoic identification on to some great man is a new phenomena.

[Zamuel]

As if displacing your egoic identification on to some great man is a new phenomena.

Not many of us are destined to archetypical greatness ... but many of us find it's resonance within us. Someone will always rise to the occasion when it presents itself ... this process seems to work fairly well. Be prepared.

Zam

[SecretSquirrel]

How does honor make one a chump?

My understanding of Honor is that you refrain from speaking falsehoods or striking helpless foes.

This is a strategy which, while it may constrain you in the short run, allows others to place more trust in you and thus help you more when you need it.

Being "dishonorable" by this definition allows more flexibility and short term gain but may impose limits on your potential.

both philosophies have advantages and pitfalls

[Bridgeburner]

Honor is a biologically derived trait from our pre-Agrarian days that has evolved alongside us, as it is a competitive trait that confers massive advantages to an in-group of males that has to fight against an out-group of competitors.

Honor is primarily a tool for conflict resolution and conflict-prevention within an in-group of males. A code of honor limits in-fighting and provides an avenue for conflict resolution within an in-group that requires collective strength to deal with existential combat against out-group competitors.

Put simply, a group of males capable of trusting one another is able to overcome a group rife with suspicion, division and internal conflict. Honor has been a universal prized masculine quality because of the advantage in combat effectiveness it confers.

[mikema63]

Everything is in some sense biologically derived, because biology is required for us to exist at all. I really wish people would be more careful about reducing complex social phenomenon down to any specific narrative without empirical evidence.

Your story may be true, and many others may also be true.

[Frollein]

Honor is a biologically derived trait from our pre-Agrarian days that has evolved alongside us, as it is a competitive trait that confers massive advantages to an in-group of males that has to fight against an out-group of competitors.

Honor is primarily a tool for conflict resolution and conflict-prevention within an in-group of males. A code of honor limits in-fighting and provides an avenue for conflict resolution within an in-group that requires collective strength to deal with existential combat against out-group competitors.

Put simply, a group of males capable of trusting one another is able to overcome a group rife with suspicion, division and internal conflict. Honor has been a universal prized masculine quality because of the advantage in combat effectiveness it confers.

Does that mean women don't have honor?

[Zamuel]

Does that mean women don't have honor?

As with many factors, when applied to women, the implications become confusing.

Zam

[Frollein]

I mean, imagine this prehistorical scene: while the men are out hunting a mammoth (at least that's what they said), the women have to make sure that there'll be something to eat that night. So the group wanders off into the bushes to "see what they have" (today it's called "browsing" and driving attending males insane. That's because men are biologically not equipped to browse). So the women and their little children are browsing through the underbrush, simultaneously scanning the vegetation for berries, bird nests, plants with edible roots, their children, suspicious movement in the woods (predator?) and chatting with the other women that they can't see anymore, but as long as you keep talking, the other women know that you haven't been dragged away by a sabertooth or other hungry beasts browsing, like you, for dinner. That's how women even today are biologically equipped to
a) multitask
b) talk all the time and having a visceral need to talk all the time
c) have a wider visual range which is why they see you checking up other women without having to turn their head.

Now, suddenly you come across a patch of berries. Here's your dilemma: do you let the other women know what you found and call them to share? Or do you keep this treasure for yourself and your little kid, thereby making sure that it is well fed and thereby increase his chances of survival? On the one hand, you need the group of women for survival and safety, on the other you have your biological self-interest sitting among the berries with blue-smeared lips. So you decide that your child will have this meal all for himself, but at the same time you need to keep up your chatter with the other women so they won't suspect anything.

That's how women can be fiercely loyal to each other and royal bitches at the same time.

Yes, women's honor is way more complicated.

[SecretSquirrel]

From an insanely transgressive webcomic

NSFW!

Spoiler: show

[mikema63]

Well that's certainly something.

[Lexington]

(Scout Oath) On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

(Scout Law) A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

So I'm an Eagle Scout (I don't think I mentioned that here before) - if I wanted to define honor it would be in the above things.

And Oglaf is great.

[Dagoth Ur]

Sounds like a bunch of inflexible rules meant to be applied to a world that is not-static. Yep sounds like honor to me too.

Also seriously "a scout is [...] cheerful"? Jesus Christ that sounds oppressive.

[Lexington]

The irony is that sometimes I bring a guy home from a club I just met that night and fuck him (safely, Scout's honor) senseless on my bed. My Eagle Scout badge happens to be on the wall past the foot of the bed, there's the irony.

I would call that cheerful?

But being physically strong, mentally awake, morally straight, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, etc - I don't find these inflexible, I have found them strengthening in my life. Cheesy as shit as that sounds.

[Ummon]

Honor arises in certain circumstances like Bushido, Chivalry, or Ren. Unfortunately it often co-occurs with times of strife like the warring states period, fuedal europe, or samurai based Japan when raiders and other barbarians are prevalent. We remember the necessity of it when adversity recalls it to our attention

[Dagoth Ur]

Rather honor caused a bunch of stupid problems, like killing each other over minor offense, which lots of people died for, and then we abandoned because HONOR IS A CHILDISH MINDSET FOR ROMANTIC FOOLS.

[Ummon]

Do you think you will persuade with that mind?

[Dagoth Ur]

I'm just poking holes in your romantic bubble.