[Todd D.]

Ah, I see you follow the "victim of society" line of thinking.

Anyone who has the constitution to succeed will do so if they try hard enough. It doesn't matter where they live or how rich their parents are.

Buddy, I'm a fairly hardcore Libertarian, and even I know this isn't true. The fact is that the even if you work as hard as you possibly can, for whatever reason there are people who just can't pull themselves out of the gutter and raise their class status. Democrats say that this is proof that we need government intervention, I would say that it is because of government intervention, but the fact is that this idea that you can pull yourself up by the bootstraps simply does not hold the way that it did 100 years ago. And yes, this is in America, not some third world country.

[clownboy]

Buddy, I'm a fairly hardcore Libertarian, and even I know this isn't true. The fact is that the even if you work as hard as you possibly can, for whatever reason there are people who just can't pull themselves out of the gutter and raise their class status. Democrats say that this is proof that we need government intervention, I would say that it is because of government intervention, but the fact is that this idea that you can pull yourself up by the bootstraps simply does not hold the way that it did 100 years ago. And yes, this is in America, not some third world country.

Interesting, but not boune out by my own personal experience. Of course this doesn't negate your view, perhaps myself and the people I know are anomalies.

The town I grew up in, we were all poor. Happy, but poor. Because my parents valued a good education, I had the tools to "pull myself up by the bootstraps". There have been times when I've eaten what I could find from the grocery store's dumpster, and there have been times of steak and lobster. Here I am now, 52, retired and fat and sassy.

[Noumenon]

Buddy, I'm a fairly hardcore Libertarian, and even I know this isn't true. The fact is that the even if you work as hard as you possibly can, for whatever reason there are people who just can't pull themselves out of the gutter and raise their class status. Democrats say that this is proof that we need government intervention, I would say that it is because of government intervention, but the fact is that this idea that you can pull yourself up by the bootstraps simply does not hold the way that it did 100 years ago. And yes, this is in America, not some third world country.

I believe that its true that hard work doesn't guarantee upward mobility. You have to work both hard and smart, meaning you have to get an education.

[Todd D.]

I will agree that education is crucial to upward mobility, but the availability of education is not always uniform. That's why I think that the bootstrap myth has become so prominent, is that people assume that education is a given, when in fact it is not, especially when it comes to the areas where poverty is actually the most rampant.

[enLight]

The fact is that the even if you work as hard as you possibly can, for whatever reason there are people who just can't pull themselves out of the gutter and raise their class status.

Nonsense. Anyone in the lower class who sticks with education all the way through college (and nowadays money isn't a problem, at least for public universities) will almost certainly end up in the middle class - the American dream, right? Economic stability to raise a family and generally be happy.

I can understand middle class people not moving into the upperclass. After all, we can't all be upperclass.

The "bootstrap theory" is not a myth. It just is sometimes blown out of proportion, like when people think they can become millionaires.

[Crazy Brown Guy]

Haha€¦ so funny, If you think we are all equal we'll all have a house, car, and everything another person in the world might have. We are not equal in term of wealth, intelligence and what ever you want to put after this. Maybe according to the law we are equal but who the fuck cares about laws or follow them?

[clownboy]

Haha… so funny, If you think we are all equal we'll all have a house, car, and everything another person in the world might have. We are not equal in term of wealth, intelligence and what ever you want to put after this. Maybe according to the law we are equal but who the fuck cares about laws or follow them?

Your neighbors to the south, that's who.

Equality in this sense doesn't mean we all have equal piles of gold, or that your nextdoor neighbor will treat you exactly the same as the hot gal who lives ib the other building. It concerns your treatment by government. They are bound by our founding document to do their reasonable best to ensure that law is applied to all equally.

[Goranhammer]

Your neighbors to the south, that's who.

Equality in this sense doesn't mean we all have equal piles of gold, or that your nextdoor neighbor will treat you exactly the same as the hot gal who lives ib the other building. It concerns your treatment by government. They are bound by our founding document to do their reasonable best to ensure that law is applied to all equally.

As much as I agree with you, I don't envy the land mine you stepped on.

I can almost hear the canuck revolution squad knocking on your door.

[clownboy]

I can almost hear the canuck revolution squad knocking on your door.

Uh oh, I thought those guys were just hippies selling magazine subscriptions. Anyway, I'm now subscribed to High Times and Worker's Daily.

[Todd D.]

Nonsense. Anyone in the lower class who sticks with education all the way through college (and nowadays money isn't a problem, at least for public universities) will almost certainly end up in the middle class - the American dream, right? Economic stability to raise a family and generally be happy.

I can understand middle class people not moving into the upperclass. After all, we can't all be upperclass.

The "bootstrap theory" is not a myth. It just is sometimes blown out of proportion, like when people think they can become millionaires.

Read what I said again, "sticks with an education" is a misnomer, something you slip in there as a qualifier and hope that people don't notice. What you fail to realize is that because of the public education system, especially the ones that are in the inner cities, people don't get the opportunity to go to college. Yeah, it sucks, and it's something that we need to work on, but that doesn't change the fact that colleges, even public ones, are not going to offer full rides to people who are barely literate because they can't get teachers to work the schools. Likewise, it's hard to get a bank that's willing to provide a loan to an inner city individual who's dad is in jail and has no forseeable way of paying it back, it's simply a bad investment.

The true "nonsense" is taht you think that we can just send everyone to school and they will do equally well, and that's sadly just not true.

[Crazy Brown Guy]

Haha… so funny, If you think we are all equal we'll all have a house, car, and everything another person in the world might have. We are not equal in term of wealth, intelligence and what ever you want to put after this. Maybe according to the law we are equal but who the fuck cares about laws or follow them?

Your neighbors to the south, that's who.

Equality in this sense doesn't mean we all have equal piles of gold, or that your nextdoor neighbor will treat you exactly the same as the hot gal who lives ib the other building. It concerns your treatment by government. They are bound by our founding document to do their reasonable best to ensure that law is applied to all equally.

You sure stepped into a landmine here, I don't want to write a book here about American Governments human right violations and immoral actions here but I'll list some of the crap....
1. When ever a person from a Middle Eastern country enter the US they are being finger printed and photographed... WOW…equal right ehhhh!!!
2. Invading a country for oil… WOW…this is a morally sane thing to do ehhhh!!!
3. Blacks weren’t allow to own guns…they weren’t suppose to eat on the same table as whites, they shouldn’t sit in the front of the bus….it all changed but since u wanted to talk about “founding document” I thought this was something u need to be reminded of.
4. Nukes in Japan
5. Chemical warfare in Vietnam
6. Bio warfare in Korea/China (tested on the American and Canadian citizens without there knowledge)
7. That thing with Japanese during WW2, Concentration Camps (Guantanamo Bay, Cuba)

If your government value equal human craps explain all these and many other atrocities your government committed. Because you got something in paper that doesn’t mean your government follows them…ohhh..how about the Patriot Act…go and read it here http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html and tell me what kind of crap the constitution has that this Act violates….

A persons actions determine what kind of a person he/she is, not words.

[Goranhammer]

I'll address the points individually.

1. When ever a person from a Middle Eastern country enter the US they are being finger printed and photographed... WOW…equal right ehhhh!!!

If they are not American citizens and are from the Middle East coming to America, they should have EXTREMELY few rights. Security above all else. In the end, it's a small trade-off for vigilance.

2. Invading a country for oil… WOW…this is a morally sane thing to do ehhhh!!!

This is ONE reason, but it was not the ONLY reason. There were a plethora of reasons to go in. Anyone that singles out oil is deliberately turning blinders on to the world.

3. Blacks weren’t allow to own guns…they weren’t suppose to eat on the same table as whites, they shouldn’t sit in the front of the bus….it all changed but since u wanted to talk about “founding document” I thought this was something u need to be reminded of.

This is ancient history. All these things no longer exist because of the changes we've made. Don't condemn America for what happened within its borders many, many decades ago.

4. Nukes in Japan

They started it, we ended it. To the extreme. War is not glorified, and in the end we put an exclamation point on things. I, for one, feel no remorse for this.

Besides, 40 years later they were one of the most powerful nations in the world. You'd almost swear Hiroshima was a blessing in disguise.

5. Chemical warfare in Vietnam

No comment. I disagree with Vietnam completely.

6. Bio warfare in Korea/China (tested on the American and Canadian citizens without there knowledge)

I've never heard anywhere from anything that it was tested on our own.

7. That thing with Japanese during WW2, Concentration Camps (Guantanamo Bay, Cuba)

Once again, it was war. The rules changed.

[enLight]

The true "nonsense" is taht you think that we can just send everyone to school and they will do equally well, and that's sadly just not true.

There are many opporutnities for people to further their education. Some one with a bad teacher or in a poor school should take the iniative to transfer or sefl-study. Even if they aren't swift enough to make it to a regular college, I've never heard of community colleges turning someone down. Money isn't an issue either - loans, grants, scholorships, workstudy programs, the list goes on and on. Your "dad in jail, no loan" example is also faulty. A loan is not the only method of finacial aid.

America does provide equal opportunity for education (and thus a successful life) granted that the person has the motavation/initiative to follow through on it. And claiming that city public schools fail to give a person an opportunity is not true. I know. I go to a Chicago public school. I know what opportunities are out there.

I think my postion is more than justified by the fact that America has an enormous middle class.

[Todd D.]

There are many opporutnities for people to further their education. Some one with a bad teacher or in a poor school should take the iniative to transfer or sefl-study. Even if they aren't swift enough to make it to a regular college, I've never heard of community colleges turning someone down. Money isn't an issue either - loans, grants, scholorships, workstudy programs, the list goes on and on. Your "dad in jail, no loan" example is also faulty. A loan is not the only method of finacial aid.

You cannot transfer out of a public school if it is the only one in your district. It is something that I disagree with, because it eliminates competition, but it's a fact of the way we run things. Have you ever studied mobility of inner-city poor? They simply cannot afford to move somewhere else, they just don't have the liquid assets. As for the financial aide, that really does depend on the credit of a person. Community College's don't have work study programs, since there is no campus per se. Grants and scholarships are also dependent on grades achieved at which school. It really is individual dependent, and you can't make that blanket statement that EVERYONE can achieve it.

America does provide equal opportunity for education (and thus a successful life) granted that the person has the motavation/initiative to follow through on it. And claiming that city public schools fail to give a person an opportunity is not true. I know. I go to a Chicago public school. I know what opportunities are out there.

I don't mean this to sound threatening, but where in Chicago? I have some buddies from there and would be interested in getting their opinions of your neighborhood. I'm not trying to discredit your statement, and I think it is admirable that you are striving for success, keep it up.
However, I maintain that a faulty public education system can have crippling effects on the upward mobility for many lower class citizens. By the way, I went to public school

I am not saying that America is not full of opportunity, it of course is. What I am saying is that it is not full of blanket opportunity, saying that all you have to do is work hard and you are guarenteed success, I don't find any evidence that it is true. There are plenty of people who work hard and succeed, but there are also a larger number of people that work as hard as they can and are still unable to make ends meet.

[enLight]

It really is individual dependent, and you can't make that blanket statement that EVERYONE can achieve it.

Oh yes, I agree with this. I wasn't trying to say that everyone can automatically recieve it. I'm just saying there are so many opportunites out there, that those who can earn it, most likely will earn it to some degree.

I don't mean this to sound threatening, but where in Chicago?

Well let's see. I go to Taft, which is on the northwest side (Norwood Park, Jefferson Park area). A lot of whites, mostly Polish. I would say the people in this area are middle class, and some slightly lower. Additionally, we get kids (a lot hispanic, some black) bused in from the west side. Some as far down as Logan Square and Humboldt Park (rough neighborhoods).

I think it is admirable that you are striving for success, keep it up.

I'm not sure what tone this was written in, but you don't have to worry about me.

By the way, I went to public school.

Just out of curiosity (debating set aside), where?

[Todd D.]

Well let's see. I go to Taft, which is on the northwest side (Norwood Park, Jefferson Park area). A lot of whites, mostly Polish. I would say the people in this area are middle class, and some slightly lower. Additionally, we get kids (a lot hispanic, some black) bused in from the west side. Some as far down as Logan Square and Humboldt Park (rough neighborhoods).

How would your school system compare to some of the South Side schools? Something like Cabrine Green? I mean I understand the bussing thing, most of that is anti-discrimination laws, but you can't bus everybody to suburban schools, right? So what do we do?

Just out of curiosity (debating set aside), where?

I started in New Jersey, and then my family moved to Connecticut, where I went to High School in a very good public school in one of the suburbs.

[clownboy]

You cannot transfer out of a public school if it is the only one in your district. It is something that I disagree with, because it eliminates competition, but it's a fact of the way we run things. Have you ever studied mobility of inner-city poor? They simply cannot afford to move somewhere else, they just don't have the liquid assets. As for the financial aide, that really does depend on the credit of a person. Community College's don't have work study programs, since there is no campus per se. Grants and scholarships are also dependent on grades achieved at which school. It really is individual dependent, and you can't make that blanket statement that EVERYONE can achieve it.

Then you should be pro-Voucher system. It gives you the option to go to most any school, public or private.

And yes, mobility is low among inner-city poor, but this is NOT for a lack of opportunity. You know, poor folks of my generation (me, once) and before, moved to greener pastures all the time. If you're going to starve, might as well do it where it's pleasant. It's about taking risks, opportunity requires ACTION. Expecting to have it neatly handed to you, wrapped and all is just unrealistic. The horse must come to the well AND drink.

CCs DO have work-study in some states/localities. Vote locally, bring that to your CC. But there ARE loans and Pell grants and many scholarships ARE NOT grade dependent.

Btw, because a person is poor and lives in the inner-city does NOT mean their credit is shot.

I am not saying that America is not full of opportunity, it of course is. What I am saying is that it is not full of blanket opportunity, saying that all you have to do is work hard and you are guarenteed success, I don't find any evidence that it is true. There are plenty of people who work hard and succeed, but there are also a larger number of people that work as hard as they can and are still unable to make ends meet.

Opportunity doesn't imply guarantee.

And every one of those folks has more stuff (TVs, cable, stereos, computers, and on) than the richest person in the town when/where I grew up.

[clownboy]

Haha… so funny, If you think we are all equal we'll all have a house, car, and everything another person in the world might have. We are not equal in term of wealth, intelligence and what ever you want to put after this. Maybe according to the law we are equal but who the fuck cares about laws or follow them?

Your neighbors to the south, that's who.

Equality in this sense doesn't mean we all have equal piles of gold, or that your nextdoor neighbor will treat you exactly the same as the hot gal who lives ib the other building. It concerns your treatment by government. They are bound by our founding document to do their reasonable best to ensure that law is applied to all equally.

You sure stepped into a landmine here, I don't want to write a book here about American Governments human right violations and immoral actions here but I'll list some of the crap....

No, I didn't - you just misunderstood on the way to slamming the US. We were talking about equality under the law. "Human right violations and immoral actions" is a whole 'nother thread.

I was asked who cares about laws or follows them. I answered - we do. None of your laundry list of infamy precludes US citizens being treated equally under US law. Even #3, because during the time that was true - they were not citizens. Yes, before you pounce, it was very, very wrong. We share that shame with our neighbors to the north, south, east and west.

As for #1, you're right, we should treat all non-citizens equally when they enter our country - fingerprint, DNA and photo.

[enLight]

How would your school system compare to some of the South Side schools? Something like Cabrine Green?

Well, if you divided the schools into Good, Average, and Bad, I would put my school in the Average area. Nothing especially outstanding about the teachers or the facilities. Inner City schools go from Average to Bad - although the Bad ones ussually get shut down.

So what do we do?

A real tough question to answer. Lots of people will just want to throw money at the schools. I'd say the solution comes in two parts: A) Elevate the quality of teachers by setting high standards to become one. If you have a good teacher, it doesn't matter if you don't have the most up-to-date facilities. B) A culture change for the inner city kids. There is nothing an outside force can do for this. Those people have to change themselves.

If you have a good teacher, and kids who are willing to learn, there will be a good education. The best part about this solution is that it doesn't really cost any money.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Well, first you acknowledge the second part of your solution isn't so much 'doing something' as praying that the culture will change itself.

As for the first part of the solution - making it harder to become a teacher. Well raising teacher qualifications is one thing, but that will also slow down the number of people going into teaching as a worthwhile profession - because you'll have to work harder to become a teacher with no further financial incentives.

It you want to raise teacher standards, then you really have to accompany raising qualifications with wage rises as well. In addition, you'd have to have some means of 'quality-control' for current teachers. Which does cost money.