[Vivisekt]

And, after all, studies indicate that homosexuals are more likely to have multiple partners and even shorter relationships than heterosexuals.

It has been suggested that this is because Homosexuality is largely stigmatized throught many modern societies, and as the relationships are almost never nurtured in a way that is conductive to a strong bond, these relationships do not last. Meaning; it may very well be the case that it is the psychological effect of the stigma of the relationship that leads to the short relationships and masochistic practices that you see in higher numbers within a homosexual demographic.

If this is the case then it is not a stripe against homosexuality, but rather the behavior of society at large.



Another thing i've never understood is why many christians feel the need to take it upon themselves to play the role of God in regards to private sinners (eg people who commit personal sin - not sins that infringe upon others). Sure, homosexuality is defined as a sin and as such a faithful person should endevor not to engage in it him/herself as well as be socially opposed to it on a ideological level - but this does not mean that said faithful individual should also take it upon him/herself to punish and restrict unrelated homosexuals from committing their sins amongst themselves. Isn't it for God to issue judgement/punishment for sin? Isn't it then arrogant to instead take this practice up yourself, in the name of God, against people who's sinful actions have not maligned you, your family, or anybody but themselves?

Seems like it to me. It sounds like excessive Pride, a deadly sin in and of itsself.

[Lohr]

Women are not to wear men's clothing -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord." 22:5

ah...but it doesn't say anywhere that men are not to wear women's clothing..... looks like I can still make it into heaven after all.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Vivisekt - it would be interesting to know if perceived homosexuality promiscuity is in fact a reality, and if so whether it is an ahistorical concept, or, as you suggest, a product of homosexuals being marginalised. I would suspect that there must have been something about homosexuals that made Paul think of them as sinful, but then again he also didn't seem to have the highest regard for women...

As for your not understanding Christians wanting to intervene. Well, to call intervention 'pride' puts you way off the mark.

Imagine your neighbour is engaged in periodic shoplifting up at the local mall. And imagine that you know *if* he is caught that he'll be gaoled for his WHOLE life. And now imagine that you know he WILL be caught unless he stops doing it real soon. Now, telling him to stop is trying to protect him, taking the time to stop another human from making a big mistake. That is the essence of compassion.

So, while I don't go around telling homosexuals to stop (I don't believe it is a sin, personally), I can easily see why other 'Christians' do. Because they think they are stopping someone from facing a death sentence. As in, an eternal death sentence. That might be 'arrogant' from the POV that they believe in their belief system to the extent that they will try to influence others, but would at the same time be diabolical from the Christian's POV NOT to intervene.

Christians are not there to punish or judge as such, but when with no real personal judgement (because of what they 'know' the Bible says, and what is not 'a matter of personal interpretation' - ie. judgement) they 'know' that someone is hurting themselves - just like if you 'know' someone is about to commit suicide - then they feel duty-bound to intervene.

[Vivisekt]

Vivisekt - it would be interesting to know if perceived homosexuality promiscuity is in fact a reality

I've not read a very large amount of studies on this topic, but from what i have seen thusfar it would seem that homosexuals do tend to have self-proclaimed higher instances of promiscuity and self-destructive/masochistic social behavior, as contrasted to heterosexuals (who also have their fair amount). But yes, it would be interesting to know for sure.

Now, telling him to stop is trying to protect him, taking the time to stop another human from making a big mistake. That is the essence of compassion.

Yes, but there is a difference between talking to a homosexual in an effort to council and warn him, and seeking to pass laws to forcefully restrict his behavior. The former is compassion, and the latter is oppression when applied to 'victimless' personal sins like homosexuality.

they 'know' that someone is hurting themselves - just like if you 'know' someone is about to commit suicide - then they feel duty-bound to intervene.

Then why do so many religious people 'intervene' with such hate?

[Xander]

Women are not to wear men's clothing -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord." 22:5

ah...but it doesn't say anywhere that men are not to wear women's clothing..... looks like I can still make it into heaven after all.

ROFL



Is it TROUSERS! i see on that women!

[Maxim Litvinov]

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

Matthew 5:28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Leviticus 19 includes "Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed... Do not wear clothing woven of two different kinds of material... Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it... Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

Leviticus 20:18 "If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period... both of them must be cut off from their people."

I can't see why you brought up the Matthew text. It just says that lust is wrong. It doesn't condemn homosexual lust any more than it does heterosexual.

... to answer you Vivisekt:

1] You are saying that where personal counselling might be compassionate, a similar law would be oppressive? That is a rather extreme position. For instance, saying that stopping someone from jumping off a tall building is compassionate but that a state saying jumping off tall buildings is illegal is oppressive? Of course, you could argue that stopping someone doing anything is 'oppressive', but I can't see why it the action should be morally construed so differently depending on whether the state or the individual are acting.
2] That religious people intervene with such 'hate' is a personal opinion. From my own perspective, I think there do seem to be those out there who talk up the 'brimstone' awaiting those who stray - as a spiritual tool to keep people on track - but there are also those who seem to delight in the hellfire awaiting sinners, unfortunately. But the people I know personally do not take delight in telling homosexuals that they will suffer as a result of their actions (when they believe this).

[Warrior Monk]

Homosexuality is about sex and adultery. Nothing else. It is unnatural and it is abomination in the eyes of the Lord God. God severely punishes any Empire that tolerates this Satanic, barbaric, and inhumane behavior (e.g. Sodom, Gomorrah, Athens, Rome, etc.). AIDS is a Biblical plague.

[oliver]

Excuse me - but I am new to this forum and there seems an excessive amount of posts as to the problems of homosexuality.

According to my recollection the teaching of Jesus was to love thy neighbour as you would love thyself. In my opinion the bible has itself become a false idol that people worship. After so many thousands of years of translations and copying it probably resembles little of the ancient teachings anyway. Maybe it is time for a little more acceptance!! I can't understand why it is even interesting if you have no inclination that way.

[Warrior Monk]

Excuse me - but I am new to this forum and there seems an excessive amount of posts as to the problems of homosexuality.

According to my recollection the teaching of Jesus was to love thy neighbour as you would love thyself. In my opinion the bible has itself become a false idol that people worship. After so many thousands of years of translations and copying it probably resembles little of the ancient teachings anyway. Maybe it is time for a little more acceptance!! I can't understand why it is even interesting if you have no inclination that way.

So your interpretation of the Bible and the Lord Jesus's saying that we should love our neighbors as ourselves, is that we should go around Sodomizing eachother and spreading the AIDS virus and other Biblical plagues?

The Lord Jesus said "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28 )

This must be doubly so for men, for it is written:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

[oliver]

Well, I must say it is an honour to be in the presence of a new prophet - at least double....??

Frankly to say that god is responsible for the fall of Rome, athens etc... is nonsense - anyway as I recall the byzantine - Christian empire was in fact half of the divided Roman empire!

Ever got just a little aroused in the changing rooms warrior monk...?

[clownboy]

Homosexuality is about sex and adultery. Nothing else. It is unnatural and it is abomination in the eyes of the Lord God. God severely punishes any Empire that tolerates this Satanic, barbaric, and inhumane behavior (e.g. Sodom, Gomorrah, Athens, Rome, etc.). AIDS is a Biblical plague.

You see there, that's the problem I had with your introduction. Dogma does NOT equal debate.

Let's take a look -
1) The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT for homosexuality. If that were the case, the entire Fertile Crescent would have been depopulated. They were destroyed for idolatry and the worship of false gods. Read those verses again. Pay attention to the part where Lot offers his daughters to the mob to use as they will.

2) Satanic - this is a MODERN term. The term "satanic" didn't even come along until the Dark Ages. It meant simply, "against the church". Galileo was declared satanic by the Pope.

3) Barbaric? Inhumane? Please explain how.

4) The Netherlands and Canada appear to be doing just fine.

[Warrior Monk]

1) The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT for homosexuality.

If that were the case, the entire Fertile Crescent would have been depopulated.

[GTG edit: Thats enough of that shit. Your days are numbered on this forum]

They were destroyed for idolatry and the worship of false gods. Read those verses again. Pay attention to the part where Lot offers his daughters to the mob to use as they will.

I've read it a million times. Lot offers his daughters but they want to Sodomize the men.

The Netherlands and Canada appear to be doing just fine.

Only 7% of their populations are Sodomite. However I would pay close attention to the fate of these two nations. Homosexuality is a deathstyle choice. I find it amusing that almost all of the so-called "experts" who defend homosexual Sodomy either have AIDS or die of AIDS.

[Maxim Litvinov]

To Warrior Monk:

I worship the God of Stupid,
I pray to him each day
To persecute the pacifists
And kill those that are gay.

I worship the God of Lunatics,
My hymn's a hateful song:
The way of God is killing
And the way of right is wrong.

I wrote it for you. I hope you feel touched... It might be the last thing you get to read here before you are banned.

[liberalist]

I find it amusing that almost all of the so-called "experts" who defend homosexual Sodomy either have AIDS or die of AIDS.

And you say you are a follower of Christ? WTF? Did he not talk of forgiveness and peace. He taught us to embrace all our brothers - and if I remember correcly he had a few choice stories about how people should help the sick. Dont remember him talking much about laughing a people as they die. Who is my brother? In Jesus' day he talkied of the Samaritan as his brother (jews didnt much like them, so this was a bit shocking). Today, I would assume he would speak of muslims, immigrants and gays as our brothers. The whole point is that everybody is our brother - and we should treat them with respect.

[Warrior Monk]

I find it amusing that almost all of the so-called "experts" who defend homosexual Sodomy either have AIDS or die of AIDS.

And you say you are a follower of Christ? WTF?

That's right. Christ says if you even look at someone in lust you have committed the sin of adultery in your heart. Also the Lord God says homosexual Sodomy is abomination and is punishable by death.

Did he not talk of forgiveness and peace.

Yes he did. However there can be no peace with Satan until the Second Coming when Satan's Army is destroyed.

He taught us to embrace all our brothers

Embrace does not mean Sodomize and get AIDS.

and if I remember correcly he had a few choice stories about how people should help the sick. Dont remember him talking much about laughing a people as they die.

Poor word choice. I meant ironic.

The whole point is that everybody is our brother - and we should treat them with respect.

Of course. But we should rebuke them verbally.

[liberalist]

The whole point is that everybody is our brother - and we should treat them with respect.

Of course. But we should rebuke them verbally.

Not sure about that one either Warrior Monk. Did Jesus not have a story to tell about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Seems to me by verbally rebuking supposed "sinners" you are casting the first stone. Are you without sin? The point of the "casting the first stone" story was that only God can sit in judgement of other people. You, as a human and sinner have not authority to do so. So, i ask again, are you without sin? Cause if you have sinned then stop throwing stones because I think God will be able to sit in judgement without you telling her what to do.

[Maxim Litvinov]

That's right. Christ says if you even look at someone in lust you have committed the sin of adultery in your heart. Also the Lord God says homosexual Sodomy is abomination and is punishable by death.

No. Christ says lust is a sin. Lust being a homosexual and heterosexual practice. Mosaic Law condemns many practices, including eating shellfish, shaving off sideburns and having such with a woman during her period. I do not believe that you apply such rules verbatim, and nor should you apply Leviticus verbatim to the issue of homosexuality. You would be a poor Biblical scholar if you did.

[Warrior Monk]

Did Jesus not have a story to tell about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Seems to me by verbally rebuking supposed "sinners" you are casting the first stone.

Since when are words stones? Can we please keep to concensus definitions for words.

Are you without sin?

The point of the "casting the first stone" story was that only God can sit in judgement of other people.

Rebuking someone for sin is not casting stones at them. Stones are what Muslims in Iran and Nigeria throw at innocent rape victims.

You, as a human and sinner have not authority to do so. So, i ask again, are you without sin? Cause if you have sinned then stop throwing stones because I think God will be able to sit in judgement without you telling her what to do.

I'm not throwing stones. I am rebuking. Do you know what rebuking means? Homosexuality is about lust, adultery, and sin. Nothing else.

[clownboy]

Since when are words stones? Can we please keep to concensus definitions for words.

Rebuking someone for sin is not casting stones at them. Stones are what Muslims in Iran and Nigeria throw at innocent rape victims.

I'm not throwing stones. I am rebuking. Do you know what rebuking means? Homosexuality is about lust, adultery, and sin. Nothing else.

Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

[Warrior Monk]

Since when are words stones? Can we please keep to concensus definitions for words.

Rebuking someone for sin is not casting stones at them. Stones are what Muslims in Iran and Nigeria throw at innocent rape victims.

I'm not throwing stones. I am rebuking. Do you know what rebuking means? Homosexuality is about lust, adultery, and sin. Nothing else.

Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

I suggest you try to reinterpret the meaning of that passage.

"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear" (1 Timothy 5:20)

"Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." (Isaiah 58:1)

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Leviticus 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Joshua 7 - just one sin of Achan among Israel stopped the work of God - Israel could not conquer the land. The same way just one unrepented sin among church fully stops the work of God - church cannot save sinners and do God's work. It may lead people to "church" membership, but it fully cannot lead people obey to Christ (John 15:4-5), because it does not obey Christ itself.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1).

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Proverbs 9:7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Proverbs 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.

Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

Proverbs 13:1 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.

Proverbs 15:5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

Proverbs 15:12 A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.

Proverbs 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.

Proverbs 19:20 Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.

Proverbs 19:25 Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge.

Proverbs 24:25 But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.

Proverbs 25:12 As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.

Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Proverbs 28:11 The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out.

Proverbs 28:23 He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.

Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Ecclesiastes 7:5 It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.

Jeremy 20; Matthew 7:15-23; Ezekiel 3:17-21

Amos 5:10 They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly.