[Zamuel]

development begins immediately AFTER conception. At the moment of creation, we are a -0- sum, pure unrealized potential. Completely undetermined, nothing developed at all ...

Not so. At the moment of conception, future personality is already largely determined by genes.

No...At the moment of conception a sperm enters an egg, a non denominated possibility (Sex) becomes a quantifiable potential that begins where everything (and everyone) begins ... at -0-. Quite a bit goes on before there's any exchange of chromosomes and genetic material.

"The male and female pronuclei don't fuse, although their genetic material do. Instead, their membranes dissolve, leaving no barriers between the male and female chromosomes. During this dissolution, a mitotic spindle forms between them. The spindle captures the chromosomes before they disperse in the egg cytoplasm. Upon subsequently undergoing mitosis (which includes pulling of chromatids towards centrioles in anaphase) the cell gathers genetic material from the male and female together. Thus, the first mitosis of the union of sperm and oocyte is the actual fusion of their chromosomes."

This process can take up to a full day ... once completed, the process of genetic diversification begins, the next step is the formation of the Merulla (16 cells) and generally takes 3-4 days ... a great deal of differentiation has taken place by then.

and we ALL share that moment and that value. EQUALLY, 0=0.

No. Just as a human being is different from an ape at conception, so people are different from each other. The difference is only one of degree.

No, the difference is a matter of TIME. For around 24 hrs we are all, in fact equal ... created that way ... The difference between a Human and an ape is obviously not one of degree. But I can definitely point you towards some idealists that will argue that apes, and all living things, are also created equal ... they share the same -0- point when created, though their differentiation will be radically different ... Want to meet an Anarchist, Buddhist, PETA, Lesbian Feminist, Biker ?

Development follows creation and is a highly defined set of quantified random events 1,3,4,7,5,8, the individual series vary and become ever more diverse as we grow. You don't have to like it, but attempting to deny it is delusional.

Denying that evolution works specifically on the basis of differences present from conception is delusional.

The historical context of that "self-evident truth" was a reaction against the hereditary monarchies and aristocracies of Europe, especially Britain. The principle is that people are all "created" (i.e., born) equal in their moral capacity, and so should all be equal in law, and that no one should have special privileges, or more rights than others, purely on the basis of their birth (i.e., who their parents are). So it is kind of a figurative way of expressing the principle of equality before the law.

No ... A "TRUTH" is not contextual , it is universal.

No, you are factually incorrect. A truth is contextual because its meaning is determined by context.

Facts are distinctive from Truth in that they do require context. A Truth is universal and fits any context you want to use. Refering to Truth as "factually incorrect" is oxymoronic (no big surprise there).

How would you even decide what a true statement means without context?

Yep, there you go again, I didn't say anything about true statements or their meanings ... I referred to -Universal Truth- do you understand the difference? Try and keep up.

Zam

[Truth To Power]

development begins immediately AFTER conception. At the moment of creation, we are a -0- sum, pure unrealized potential. Completely undetermined, nothing developed at all ...

Not so. At the moment of conception, future personality is already largely determined by genes.

No...

Yes. Your claims are factually incorrect:

At the moment of conception a sperm enters an egg, a non denominated possibility (Sex) becomes a quantifiable potential that begins where everything (and everyone) begins ... at -0-.

False. The specific genetic material -- 23 chromosomes from each gamete -- that determines future development and potential is already present. Your claims are unambiguously incorrect as a matter of objective physical fact.

Quite a bit goes on before there's any exchange of chromosomes and genetic material.

When you aren't wrong, you're irrelevant:

"The male and female pronuclei don't fuse, although their genetic material do. Instead, their membranes dissolve, leaving no barriers between the male and female chromosomes. During this dissolution, a mitotic spindle forms between them. The spindle captures the chromosomes before they disperse in the egg cytoplasm. Upon subsequently undergoing mitosis (which includes pulling of chromatids towards centrioles in anaphase) the cell gathers genetic material from the male and female together. Thus, the first mitosis of the union of sperm and oocyte is the actual fusion of their chromosomes."

See?

and we ALL share that moment and that value. EQUALLY, 0=0.

No. Just as a human being is different from an ape at conception, so people are different from each other. The difference is only one of degree.

No, the difference is a matter of TIME.

No, you are objectively incorrect.

For around 24 hrs we are all, in fact equal ... created that way ...

Objectively false. The genetic potential is already determined.

The difference between a Human and an ape is obviously not one of degree.

Yes, it is, which is how we evolved from apes.

But I can definitely point you towards some idealists that will argue that apes, and all living things, are also created equal ... they share the same -0- point when created, though their differentiation will be radically different ... Want to meet an Anarchist, Buddhist, PETA, Lesbian Feminist, Biker ?

Not particularly, nor any other variety of misinformed moron.

Development follows creation and is a highly defined set of quantified random events 1,3,4,7,5,8, the individual series vary and become ever more diverse as we grow. You don't have to like it, but attempting to deny it is delusional.

Denying that evolution works specifically on the basis of differences present from conception is delusional.

The historical context of that "self-evident truth" was a reaction against the hereditary monarchies and aristocracies of Europe, especially Britain. The principle is that people are all "created" (i.e., born) equal in their moral capacity, and so should all be equal in law, and that no one should have special privileges, or more rights than others, purely on the basis of their birth (i.e., who their parents are). So it is kind of a figurative way of expressing the principle of equality before the law.

No ... A "TRUTH" is not contextual , it is universal.

No, you are factually incorrect. A truth is contextual because its meaning is determined by context.

Facts are distinctive from Truth in that they do require context. A Truth is universal and fits any context you want to use.

Nope. Any statement of truth is context-dependent, even if only the context of the language of expression.

Refering to Truth as "factually incorrect" is oxymoronic (no big surprise there).

<yawn> Speaking of moronic, I said YOU were factually incorrect, not truth. Try to keep up.

How would you even decide what a true statement means without context?

Yep, there you go again, I didn't say anything about true statements or their meanings ... I referred to -Universal Truth- do you understand the difference? Try and keep up.

You imagine you understand more of this than I?



The context was the DoI and its claim of self-evident truth. Without context, you can't tell what was intended by that statement -- as proved so eloquently in this thread.

[Zamuel]

False. The specific genetic material -- 23 chromosomes from each gamete -- that determines future development and potential is already present. Your claims are unambiguously incorrect as a matter of objective physical fact.

Sure, just as they were present in the gametes before fertilization occurred, before their was any sex ... They have to COMBINE, before differentiation begins. CREATION must occur FIRST ... Only AFTER it does can development begin and that is not an instantaneous process. Ignoring this doesn't change it.

You imagine you understand more of this than I?

It's obvious you have little if any comprehension.

Without context, you can't tell what was intended by that statement

? You just don't get it ... Use ANY context you like ... A TRUTH is universal.

Zam

[Truth To Power]

False. The specific genetic material -- 23 chromosomes from each gamete -- that determines future development and potential is already present. Your claims are unambiguously incorrect as a matter of objective physical fact.

Sure, just as they were present in the gametes before fertilization occurred, before their was any sex ...

No, the gametes were at that time not yet both in the same cell. Once they are, the individual's genetic potential and future development are largely a done deal.

They have to COMBINE, before differentiation begins.

You seem to be using "differentiation" in two different senses: of the individual (relevant) and of cells (irrelevant). That's an equivocation fallacy.

CREATION must occur FIRST ...

Creation of what? How? See how your claim of universal truth only leads to more context dependence?

Only AFTER it does can development begin and that is not an instantaneous process. Ignoring this doesn't change it.

I don't need to change it: I'm ignoring it because it's irrelevant.

You imagine you understand more of this than I?

It's obvious you have little if any comprehension.

I scored 170/170 on the GRE verbal. You did not.

Without context, you can't tell what was intended by that statement

? You just don't get it ... Use ANY context you like ... A TRUTH is universal.

Nonsense. We can't even agree what this particular "truth" means by, "created."

[Zamuel]

We can't even agree what this particular "truth" means by, "created."

One of your favorite tactics... I think Johnny Cash said it best... "Troll on Big River."

Zam