[mum]

And, according to me, the case is -as I said- because people are not culturally ready to live in a communist state. There are many reasons why they're not ready, amongst them the lack of quality education (I know it's quite easy to blame everything on education, but since I became a teacher I've realized that education had still a lot of progress to do...).

The other reason is that most people don't like being in poverty. Funny that don't they know its good for them! !

[The Captain]

The other reason is that most people don't like being in poverty. Funny that don't they know its good for them! !

Thanks, this is really helping the debate. Does this pass as an argument nowadays? I know that's easier than really making a point but you should at least try...

[mum]

You don't think that making the point that living under any kind of collectivist regime means you will be living :n poverty is a fair point ?
Its a very important point, even if you dont agree.

[The Captain]

You don't think that making the point that living under any kind of collectivist regime means you will be living :n poverty is a fair point ?
Its a very important point, even if you dont agree.

No because you point is incorrect, you're talking about failed examples of large scale collectivism. I have already exposed the reasons why these examples failed utterly therefore I don't need to expand on that.

You're talking about examples, that's the problem, in a debate we're talking about the true nature of collectivism and collectivism doesn't mean that you will live in poverty, it means that everybody can have a chance to live decently.

Why would anybody embrace collectivism with the aim of living in poverty?

[Kman]

and collectivism doesn't mean that you will live in poverty, it means that everybody can have a chance to live decently.

It does actually mean that you will live in poverty since collectivism punishes productive work and rewards laziness (since rewards are socialized) so you end up with more poverty since the amount of productive work goes down.

[The Captain]

It does actually mean that you will live in poverty since collectivism punishes productive work and rewards laziness (since rewards are socialized) so you end up with more poverty since the amount of productive work goes down.

I see what you mean, I'll try to make myself clear once again:

If you're not ready to do your job for a decent amount of money, if your purchasing power is the only incentive you have to do your job, it means that you job sucks, is useless and that you should quit it before doing more damages than you already did.

What I am trying to explain is that a society in which people are exploited, the only thing that will motivate the latter is greed, and a society that is based on greed is doomed to destroy itself.

If you have no higher purpose to do you work, then you will become lazy.

That's why I explained (maybe not in this thread) that :

You cannot build a collectivist system in a nation which is based on a rotten principle like greed. Collectivism may work, it may work even beautifully in a society populated with "philosophers" (in the sense Plato intended it), people who work for something mightier than their own little self.

We are all (including myself) corrupted by the idea that only our self matters, but this is a red herring, we don't matter at all. And our egocentrism is destroying the system that feeds us.
Therefore it has become essential to rethink our culture, our society and our economic system. And in this sense, collectivism appears as an interesting option.

[Baff]

I take it you've never actually had a job yourself then?

Because I can tell you that in my experience, however good it is, in the end you want money.
Either as a formal recognition of your dedication. Or because your job is quite boring.

Washing dishes in a restaurent is job that needs to be done, but no one in his right mind expects the dishwasher to be doing his job out of the sheer love for it.

Further more even for people who broadly speaking are employed in jobs they enjoy, there is still the question of motivation. At some point or other, they will get bored. At some point or other they will see another job which sounds more exciting or just a trip to the pub or going home for the afternoon.

In the end, if people loved going to work, no one would need to get paid for it. They would all do it for free.


Re-think your culture all you like, but get some experience in the workplace before you get too married to your newly proposed philosophy.

[The Captain]

I take it you've never actually had a job yourself then?

Nope, I have been working all the time since I've been old enough to do so, I worked in a variety of fields and even did some hard boring work.

Because I can tell you that in my experience, however good it is, in the end you want money.
Either as a formal recognition of your dedication. Or because your job is quite boring.

Washing dishes in a restaurent is job that needs to be done, but no one in his right mind expects the dishwasher to be doing his job out of the sheer love for it.

In the end you want the money because you need money to survive, that's true, and also because you can't expect to have a better purpose to work for. Something is sadly wrong there...

The important question is : how to give meaning to a job?

In the end, if people loved going to work, no one would need to get paid for it. They would all do it for free.

Exactly, that's how you measure up to what point you love your work. Now we will never create a society in which everybody is 100% happy, we all know that.
But the goal that we should try to reach is a society in which job have meanings, in which people feel part of something and working for something intrinsically good.

Re-think your culture all you like, but get some experience in the workplace before you get too married to your newly proposed philosophy.

I got experience in the workplace thankyouverymuch, and my philosophy is anything but new.

It's when you stop questioning things and when you give up on trying to make the world a better place that you make the future a little bit gloomier for the next generations.
Being satisfied with what you got is a virtue, but when you're satisfied with the society you live in, albeit it's mechanism are broken, is when you will give up on improving the quality of life for your community and your children.

[Baff]

In the end you want the money because you need money to survive, that's true, and also because you can't expect to have a better purpose to work for. Something is sadly wrong there...

Why do you feel this?
Money can be used to an almost infinite amount of ends.

What is sad about working to achieve ends beyond those prescribed by your job description?
Is it so wrong to want a life outside work?

[The Captain]

Why do you feel this?
Money can be used to an almost infinite amount of ends.

What is sad about working to achieve ends beyond those prescribed by your job description?
Is it so wrong to want a life outside work?

Money in itself isn't the problem, money is just a medium after all.

But when works becomes meaningless, money becomes the only relief for alienation and frustration in the workplace. Therefore, people are forced to seek soothing outside the workplace and become the preys of marketers who will pressure them to buy things they don't need in the first place.

What I see as wrong is the fact that jobs, way too often, become meaningless and people get disconnected from the fact that a job is suppose to serve a definite purpose, each purpose should -in the end- make society better. But they don't, many jobs don't make society better, sometimes they even make it worse.
And we have let this happen because we have become convinced that as long as a job gives us money, the existence of this job is justified, but it isn't. You can earn millions of dollars selling things that will maim people and still, nobody will question the right of your job to exist.

That's why I say that our jobs must have meaning, and this doesn't mean that working should be the only thing important in our life, absolutely not, but it should be something that makes us feel that we are part of something.

[Baff]

Unfortunately the shit jobs still need to be done too.
And some people really don't want to dwell on that the exact and essential part of something for the greater good that they are... is the public toilet cleaner.

There are plenty of kudos jobs out there for which the work is in part a reward in itself or the the work attracts the accolade of others.


And then there are plenty of shitty jobs that we solely do as means to other ends. There is no expectation on people in shit jobs, dishwasher, loo cleaner etc to feel any great sense of participation in society through their work. Any great lust for their job or the lure of it's higher moral calling.

They are just cleaning up other peoples shit. Thinking about the money is the best way to maintain any sense of self respect in this kind of case.

[The Captain]

Unfortunately the shit jobs still need to be done too.
And some people really don't want to dwell on that the exact and essential part of something for the greater good that they are... is the public toilet cleaner.

There are plenty of kudos jobs out there for which the work is in part a reward in itself.

And then there are plenty of shitty jobs.

In the present sociological and economical context, you are right.

But still, I will always ask more questions: how can we do better? Is this the best we can do? If it is then we must also rethink the so-called greatness of mankind.

Moreover: why do we need public toilet when to do something that's between you and nature? (urbanites can't understand this one...)

And most importantly: Why do we absolutely need shitty jobs?

I'm sure you have a little imagination, don't you? Do you seriously believe that it's impossible to get rid of shitty jobs? For example by sharing the burden of those jobs?

[Wormseye]

Hello, excuse me for being new, but what have morals got to do with wealth? There will be people with/ without morals across a range of incomes. Shouldn't the question be about how individuals got power and how they use it? Wealth is just one aspect of the "power elite"

[mum]

There is a collectivist commune in the US somewhere where there is no money and everyone just does the jobs they like. Surprise surprise the place is disgusting dirty and littered with rubish because no one wants to do the shit jobs.

[Baff]

Sounds much like your average student house.
It's a lesson most people have to learn the hard way.

And most importantly: Why do we absolutely need shitty jobs?

Because shit causes diseases and kills lots of people if you don't clean it up.

[The Captain]

Sounds much like your average student house.

Haha, that's true !

Because shit causes diseases and kills lots of people if you don't clean it up.

Well, not really, it only happens in the city, because we are not supposed to be living stacked upon each other like factory farm animals. You can go take a dump anywhere in the countryside it's not going to harm anybody, quite the contrary.

[Baff]

Even in the coutryside shit causes diseases if it's not cleaned up.

That's why we rotate our livestock, because they get dieases from their own shit if they aren't moved away form it. Worms and the like.

Another shit job in the country would be mucking out the cows. Or the horses, or the chickens.
Again, it has to be done or they die of diseases. But it's a shit job and in no way enjoyable.

[mum]

Thats right,there will ALWAYS be undesirable jobs... even as technology makes our lives better, there will still be the most undesirable jobs that noone wants to do.
Capitalism solves it perfectly, it provides entrepeneurs the opportunity to make a profit by providing services that most people dont want to do.

[Tezelian_Imperialist]

Are ignorant people disposable?

Yes lol

Little evil for greater good, wipe out 5 billion ignorant people and leave the world to be run by 2 billion intelligent and kind people

The problem is, whose going to kill the people? and education or educating ignorant people is just a waste of time and resources in my opinion.

[mum]

Little evil? Why don't you do it ? You talk mass murder, but I assume you are too gutless to actually do it yourself. Why dont you pick up a machete right now and start getting blood on your hands, see how long you last. Maybe you should start with yourself.