[Zamuel]

I'm just poking holes in your romantic bubble.

Interesting, tell us dagoth, DO YOU have any honor ? Would you care to explain it so WE can poke holes in it ?

Zam

[Dagoth Ur]

I of course have a fairly normal moral compass. I just do not pretend its meaning is transcendant.

[Zamuel]

I of course have a fairly normal moral compass. I just do not pretend its meaning is transcendant.

So ... your honor is of the "Lower Orders?"

Zam

[mikema63]

What are "Orders"? and what makes something of a lower or higher order?

[Zamuel]

What are "Orders"? and what makes something of a lower or higher order?

Not exactly Skull and Bones material, are you old boy ... ? There really are many ways to define "orders" but for now lets just say they are groups with similar individual values (similar resonance for the advanced student). Quantification is progressive ... Lower / Higher, Base / Refined , Primitive / Evolved, Inexperienced / Mature ... take your pick of whatever scale appeals to you.

Transcendence would be off the scale ... An order at least mostly beyond human perceptibility. Honor tends to be a higher order concept, Though it is often misunderstood and poorly imitated by lesser orders that may seek to use it as a justification or pretension.

Zam

[Ummon]

I of course have a fairly normal moral compass. I just do not pretend its meaning is transcendant.

So is Love a romantic delusion that we should ignore as well? I could use the same arguments to say it is a "romantic delusion" and all of our relationships should be exploitative. Would you agree with that?

[mikema63]

Not exactly Skull and Bones material, are you old boy ... ? There really are many ways to define "orders" but for now lets just say they are groups with similar individual values (similar resonance for the advanced student). Quantification is progressive ... Lower / Higher, Base / Refined , Primitive / Evolved, Inexperienced / Mature ... take your pick of whatever scale appeals to you.

These seem to be nothing more than a list of ways to express your opinion about something.

Transcendence would be off the scale ... An order at least mostly beyond human perceptibility. Honor tends to be a higher order concept, Though it is often misunderstood and poorly imitated by lesser orders that may seek to use it as a justification or pretension.

In this case you seem to be using lower orders to describe groups of people. Do you believe some groups of people are inherently better than others?

So is Love a romantic delusion that we should ignore as well?

Love is a complex neurological process involving several emotions and strong relational dependence.

I could use the same arguments to say it is a "romantic delusion" and all of our relationships should be exploitative. Would you agree with that?

Relationship exploitation is a evolutionary strategy commonly referred to as "psychopathy". It isn't particularly beneficial to the population groups however so it is not the optimal or most common strategy.

[Zamuel]

In this case you seem to be using lower orders to describe groups of people. Do you believe some groups of people are inherently better than others?

No, the values here are quantitive, not qualitive. The system is organizational not judgmental.

Some mid level orders are prone to qualitive value judgements, but it usually involves an environmental dissonance factor not sentience levels .

Zam

[mikema63]

No, the values here are quantitive, not qualitive.

Those are descriptive terms, not numerical ones. By definition that is qualitative.

The system is organizational not judgmental.

To organize something you must judge it. Even in numerical systems you have to make a judgement about what numbers are better. You have to make a judgement about what is important to measure before you even begin.

Some mid level orders are prone to qualitive value judgements, but it usually involves an environmental dissonance factor not sentience levels .

This is either entirely meaningless, or you are using an obscure jargon. You continue to use things like "mid level orders" to try to explain what orders even mean (which remains unclear). What is an "enviromental dissonance factor"? What is a "sentience level"? These mean nothing to me.

[Zamuel]

No, the values here are quantitive, not qualitive.

Those are descriptive terms, not numerical ones. By definition that is qualitative.

OK, I used a qualitive statement to answer your question ... that doesn't make the subject of that answer qualitive too. If you want to play games you can probably get in on some "ring around the rosy" at the park.

The system is organizational not judgmental.

To organize something you must judge it. Even in numerical systems you have to make a judgement about what numbers are better. You have to make a judgement about what is important to measure before you even begin.

You do? ... kinky ... I don't ... Around here the chips fall where the cow drops them. My only interest is not stepping in them ... You want to pick a favorite? Go ahead.

Some mid level orders are prone to qualitive value judgements, but it usually involves an environmental dissonance factor not sentience levels.

This is either entirely meaningless, or you are using an obscure jargon. You continue to use things like "mid level orders" to try to explain what orders even mean (which remains unclear).

So ... your metaphysical education has been neglected ... Typical mechanical attitude.

What is an "enviromental dissonance factor"?

Something you perceive or intuit to be "wrong" or "out of place" it will make you restless, uneasy, and prone to irrational behavior.

What is a "sentience level"? These mean nothing to me.

An order ... a personal resonance. The measurable difference in an individual's cognitive status ranging from sleep to extreme excitement. (the nuances here are infinite, that's a VERY basic explanation.)

Zam

[mikema63]

OK, I used a qualitive statement to answer your question ... that doesn't make the subject of that answer qualitive too. If you want to play games you can probably get in on some "ring around the rosy" at the park.

You continue to fail to answer the question, or to even begin to describe what your talking about. Now your even trying to deflect by pretending that I'm the one playing word games.

You do? ... kinky ... I don't ... Around here the chips fall where the cow drops them. My only interest is not stepping in them ... You want to pick a favorite? Go ahead.

What are you talking about? This doesn't even make any sense? Are you trying to insult me? I honestly can't tell.

So ... your metaphysical education has been neglected ... Typical mechanical attitude.

By all means, educate me.

Something you perceive or intuit to be "wrong" or "out of place" it will make you restless, uneasy, and prone to irrational behavior.

So why say "environmental dissonance factor" when you mean "something that makes you uncomforable"?

An order ... a personal resonance

A what?

The measurable difference in an individual's cognitive status ranging from sleep to extreme excitement.

Sentience is the capacity to feel, and only the capacity to feel. You either are, or aren't, sentient. It isn't a measurement of how much you are feeling at the moment.

(the nuances here are infinite, that's a VERY basic explanation.)

You are using different definitions for words. You could literally mean anything if you've decided to forgo the common definitions of words.

[Zamuel]

By all means, educate me.

Sure, here's the required reading list ...

Honor: A History, by James Bowman
Honor, by Frank Henderson Stewart
What Is Honor?: A Question of Moral Imperatives, by Alexander Welsh

All still in print (AFAIK) should be available at amazon as Print or Kindle.

Let me know when you've finished the reading.

Zam