People who say suicide is selfish and cowardly - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14808438
First I must say I am very relieved to see that the vast majority of people on the internet know better than to make accusations like "suicide is selfish and cowardly", and when there's an insensitive asshole out there who makes such a claim, he gets torn to pieces by almost everyone. This is a huge relief, because in real life, it always seemed to me to be the complete other way around, since those who were going through suicidal thoughts kept them to themselves, when others who were vocal would claim that "suicide is selfish and cowardly". I'm very glad to see that everyone is speaking out online, and they almost all agree with me, that these accusations are completely and totally wrong, and the people who say such things are some of the most despicable human beings on the planet.

The reality is, anyone who makes these accusations is himself INSANELY selfish. Think about it for a minute. The person who would call a friend "selfish" for committing suicide, is claiming that he is personally hurt and effected negatively by the suicide, and that therefore that person wronged them. I can't even express just how deplorable and disgusting this type of claim is. I mean, it's really, seriously fucking mind blowing.

Let's start with this. If you consider someone a friend of yours who you value, then SURELY you should respect and value their need for relief from the pain that they are going through. Consider just how remarkably selfish you would have to be to demand that that person stays on living just so YOU can suck more value out of their existence. I just...cannot comprehend the level of repugnance coming from anyone who would say such things. Not only are you acting insanely selfish, but then you have the nerve to say the opposite.

I'm kind of getting emotional as I write this post so I won't continue much more. I'll just end with this. If I believed in hell, then anyone who ever called a victim of suicide a "coward" would be truly deserving to burn in hell for being so unbelievably insensitive and ignorant. NEVER, EVER attack the character of someone who is suffering from mental illness.
#14808445
Agent Steel wrote:If you consider someone a friend of yours who you value, then SURELY you should respect and value their need for relief from the pain that they are going through.


This is not the kind of calculation that a child or even a parent could ever make. Suicide for them is the gift that keeps on giving. The black hole of despair is not defeated, only passed on to the survivors.

I agree, however, it is pointless to blame the suicide.
#14808468
The despair of the suicide victim is far beyond anything the loved ones could possibly imagine. No, the despair is not passed onto them. And again, if they really cared and loved the person, it makes absolutely no sense for them to blame that person or condemn them. How can you say you truly love them but then make comments that go to show that the only thing you care about is using that person for your own sake? I just do not get that mentality at all. I think it's really fucked up, far more fucked up than committing suicide.
#14808675
People should have the ultimate power over their own lives, and the right to end your own life is the fundamental freedom, and no government can take that away from you (at least not without a straight jacket and feeding tube).

That said, it's the duty of a true friend or family as well as society as a whole to offer help to those suffering from depression and other mental illnesses, so they have the best shot of getting better without suicide.

Also, are you OK, Agent Steel?
#14808720
This is not the kind of calculation that a child or even a parent could ever make. Suicide for them is the gift that keeps on giving. The black hole of despair is not defeated, only passed on to the survivors.


Well said.

A person who commits suicide without attempting to get treatment could be said to be taking the easy way out. The person committing suicide must know that he/she is hurting a great many people and that given the state of medial intervention these days, needlessly.

I sympathize with those who are in pain. I sympathize with them less when they wallow in it and do not seek help. It takes real courage to cry out for help sometimes.
#14808758
I feel well these days Brother of Karl, thanks for asking. I've had a lot of depression in my life though, which is why I am sympathetic towards suicide. I believe that those who commit suicide deserve the utmost amount of sympathy. Wouldn't you agree?

I sympathize with those who are in pain. I sympathize with them less when they wallow in it and do not seek help. It takes real courage to cry out for help sometimes.


But of course that is not the way it works at all. They do seek help. They have tried everything to get help, and they have been completely unsuccessful. Suicide is the only option for them.
#14808762
Again with the talk of suicide?

It is selfish. If they thought of others, then they would stop thinking about suicide. Suicide is an affliction of the miserable and self-absorbed individuals. It is cowardly too. They want to run and escape from pain, rather than accept that life is painful but it is a pain that people can overcome.
#14808763
Agent Steel wrote:I feel well these days Brother of Karl, thanks for asking. I've had a lot of depression in my life though, which is why I am sympathetic towards suicide.
That's good. People need to look out for each other more these days. I've never been suicidal, but I have been depressed for long periods of time. I also studied a fair bit of Albert Camus and Alan Watts, who meditate a lot on the question of suicide.

I believe that those who commit suicide deserve the utmost amount of sympathy. Wouldn't you agree?
On the contrary, the dead need no sympathy, as they are no longer suffering. It's the living who need sympathy.



But of course that is not the way it works at all. They do seek help. They have tried everything to get help, and they have been completely unsuccessful. Suicide is the only option for them.

Food for thought: in some cultures, and lifestyles, suicide is far less common than others. In one of the early sociological studies, a study of suicide by Emile Durkheim in 1897, it was determined that people with greater personal freedom are more likely to commit suicide, and the wealthy commit suicide at a higher rate than the poor. In addition, those with more personal connections rarely commit suicide, and loners are more likely to die by their own hand.

Also to consider, some societies have a better average level of happiness than others. This is often not correlated with wealth.
#14808772
They have tried everything to get help, and they have been completely unsuccessful. Suicide is the only option for them.


In the modern world this is NEVER the case. Never.
#14808773
Igor Antunov wrote:It's simple. Balls up and die with dignity. Suicide is for pussies.


Not so fast. Dying of old age with your family around while on a morphine drip is for pussies. I can accept that you should make the most of your healthy life, but when you know that you are no longer of much use to the world, there's a certain bravery to ending your suffering early. Personally, I'd like to kick the bucket with my eyes still wide open. If I'm ever given a terminal diagnosis, then before I end up completely bedridden, I'm buying a ticket skydiving and then jumping out without a parachute. I want to know what it's like to go past the point of no return and still have a minute or two to meditate on it.
#14808776
Not so fast. Dying of old age with your family around while on a morphine drip is for pussies.


Perhaps. This is not about that however. Speaking of suicide by a terminally ill person nearing death is not really suicide in any real sense of the word. It is just timing.

I'm sticking with my original assertion. Help is always available.
#14808797
I spent around 3 years of my life in deep depression, and took medication for it. And the thought of suicide crossed my mind multiple times, and i can tell you that once the idea is in your head its considerably hard to ignore it. The thought that you can just end it, once and for all. That you don't have to bare anything any more. And its really attractive in many ways for people to think about it.
Personally i would say that i didn't have the courage to do it. I had a gun with me in the apartment back then and i do recall my self multiple times just setting there with a hookah in my hand and the gun on the table and just looking at it and thinking that i can end this right now. And probably no one would have noticed 'm gone for several days at the very least. I simply didn't have the courage in me to do it.

It was my currently wife Lina who actually helped me get out of such psyche. She was the only one who actually understood what 'm going through and really noticed me instead of just buffing me off like 'm some loser or a waste of time, which unfortunately many of my own direct and indirect family thought of me back then and many still do till this day. And if it wasn't for her, i don't really think that i would be here right now, i would probably at some point have done it and just ended it. I know it would've been saddening for some people, true. But i really don't think it would've effected many of the people around me. I mean right now i know of atleast a few in my direct sorroundings and family who would've wanted me to do it including my own father mostly which is why i actually left Lebanon eventually and moved as far away as possible like i did.
Its very important to try to minimize or get away from all the things that are causing your problems in such case. Facing the cause of your problems is frankly not always the answer, there are things that just are and you should get away from it as much as possible.

And don't listen to what people say about depression and wanting to commit suicide and all these topics. NO ONE will ever know what it truly is without going through it themselves. And if they do, i would bid that many wont just walk out of it like it was some easy thing to do.
#14808819
I must second Agent Steel on this one. Suicide is terrible for the survivors but calling the one that does it weak or a coward (which is true), is to me kicking on a person already lying down.

In my early 20's i suffered from a major depressive crisis. The amount of self-hatred and self-loathing involved can not be described to anyone who has never felt it. Suicide entered my thoughts, although I was never close to actually committing the deed.

What saved me in the end was helping other people, working with mental health was the best decision I ever made.
#14808834
What kind of suicide are we talking about here?

Suicide from depression?

Suicide to prevent capture and torture and giving the enemy information that could get your comrades killed?

Suicide because you're terminally ill and even the morphine doesn't help anymore?

Suicide because your culture has a non-Western code of honor?

etc.
#14808878
MistyTiger wrote:Again with the talk of suicide?

It is selfish. If they thought of others, then they would stop thinking about suicide. Suicide is an affliction of the miserable and self-absorbed individuals. It is cowardly too. They want to run and escape from pain, rather than accept that life is painful but it is a pain that people can overcome.


No, it really isn't. It's due to mental illness. It is completely inappropriate for you to condemn their character because of something they have no choice over. You really ought to apologize for that insensitive remark.

I'm sticking with my original assertion. Help is always available.


That just shows how little you know about it. Victims of suicide have spent years and years of their life trying to fight their illness and get help. No matter what they try, they are simply unable to get out of their pain. Suicide will inevitably come to anyone who is suffering through an unbearable amount of pain.

The reason I hate what you're saying is because it makes it makes it sound like you've never experienced what it's like to feel complete and utter hopelessness. You ought to know better. For many people it gets to a point where there is no other option. Suicide is often mandatory. It simply must be done.
#14808906
T
hat just shows how little you know about it. Victims of suicide have spent years and years of their life trying to fight their illness and get help. No matter what they try, they are simply unable to get out of their pain. Suicide will inevitably come to anyone who is suffering through an unbearable amount of pain.

The reason I hate what you're saying is because it makes it makes it sound like you've never experienced what it's like to feel complete and utter hopelessness. You ought to know better. For many people it gets to a point where there is no other option. Suicide is often mandatory. It simply must be done.


You have no idea what I have experienced in my life. And it has been much longer than yours. I and most experts disagree with this statement:

You ought to know better. For many people it gets to a point where there is no other option. Suicide is often mandatory. It simply must be done.


No "it" doesn't. You just posted about your own devastating depression and the solution/s for it. Others can have that same experience or one similar. Where there is life there is hope. If you have run out of hope yourself there are others who can provide it for you until you get back to your center.

I will be the first to admit that there are devastating illnesses that have an inevitably fatal outcome and a painful path along the way. The pain can be dealt with pretty easily but the outcome not. Not at this point. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about mental illness. Mental illness can be treated and there are a number of methods for doing it.

It would be the opposite of compassion for me to simply say, "yes special person. Your pain is so special that nobody could ever imagine it". But that is not true.
#14808912
I'm not willing to concede to you that there is ALWAYS hope for people with mental illness. There is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.

But even if I were to concede that, if such a person commits suicide it should NEVER be considered some kind of moral indictment against them. They deserve compassion and understanding, not condemnation.

I think we can assume that those who commit suicide are going through pain that none of us can imagine. If we could, we wouldn't even be here to talk about it. Think about that.
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