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By Verv
#15157062
late wrote:1) That's a new one to me. You just said religious bigotry is determined by race... Or something like that?

2) As an atheist, I can tell you there is very real prejudice against non-believers. If you lost both your hands, you could still count all the admitted atheists in Congress with your fingers...

That is typically a Right wing line of thought that leads to a desire to alter the government from secular, to sectarian.

This is not a good idea.


Do regular guys in Kansas discriminate against atheists? Yes, but it's probably far less than it was in the year 1995, which is far less than it was than in the year 1955.

But the way that people act in flyover country is quite irrelevant compared to what indoctrination happens in schools in Canada and throughout the US, where conservative Christian beliefs especially (and any conservative religious beliefs in general) are attacked.

People are actively socialized to be

(1) pro-feminist in a second wave sense: it's unconscionable to suggest that a woman's role in the family is in the home, and controversial to suggest that men naturally do make better lawyers due to their mental disposition or some such
(2) sex positive , as in children are taught in public schools that there's nothing wrong with masturbation, premarital relations
(3) pro-divorce, as in divorce si taught as a normal and acceptable resolution to any marriage. Indeed, many teaches themselves are divorced.
(4) generally pro-LGBTQ, even though there may not be literal advocacy that gay marriage is the right choice, anti-gay bullying is treated as a special case of bullying in most cases, and LGBT history is being included in schools.
(5) anti-creationist, as evolution alone is generally the standard that is promoted, and even theistic evolution is something that is generally avoided.

And I suppose you could go on further.

But regardless, these are things that are very much against conservative Christian views. Not liberal Christian views, of course, but conservative ones.

These can easily be thought of as their own promotion of 'cultural genocide' as any child who is from a conservative Evangelical, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, or Mormon home will surely be hearing two very different messages and seeing two very different norms at school and at home.
#15157064
Let us take a stroll down history lane.

In Canada, one of the first things that Canada did in order to destroy Indigenous cultures was allow the near eradication of bison from the plains. This forced Indigenous communities to starve, and thereby relocate to reserves, where the government promised them (and then deprived them of) food.

Was a similar tactic used against conservative Christians recently?
#15157087
Verv wrote:
These can easily be thought of as their own promotion of 'cultural genocide' as any child who is from a conservative Evangelical, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, or Mormon home will surely be hearing two very different messages and seeing two very different norms at school and at home.



Schools teach science, not kook.

They also want kids to play nice, so hell and brimfire speeches are less than welcome.

Now if they had roasted you on a spit and fed you to the kids, that might be genocidal.
User avatar
By Verv
#15157102
Pants-of-dog wrote:Let us take a stroll down history lane.

In Canada, one of the first things that Canada did in order to destroy Indigenous cultures was allow the near eradication of bison from the plains. This forced Indigenous communities to starve, and thereby relocate to reserves, where the government promised them (and then deprived them of) food.

Was a similar tactic used against conservative Christians recently?


There's a lot of people who say that the policies were deliberately to attack the natives, and there are quotes out there to back it up, but the decline of the Buffalo seems inevitable.

In the early 1800s, there were an estimated 30 million bison on the Great Plains.[1] However, the lucrative robe trade accelerated overhunting of the plains bison by indigenous groups and white settlers alike. The bison on the western plains were last to be affected by white American expansionism, but by the 1850s even those herds were diminished.[2] Westward migration of domesticated animals and people destroyed grazing grounds, and drought and new diseases exacerbated the decline.[3] The plight of the bison was largely seen as the superiority of man over nature until the early 19th century.[4] Historian Andrew Isenberg argues that the rise of capitalist ideology drove indigenous and white hunters alike to compete for every last animal, and that a multitude of factors – disease, drought, westward expansion, commercialization and industrialization of hunting, colonialism, and the introduction of domestic animals from Europe – caused the near-extinction of the bison.[5] Others point out that the bison depletion was a problem of the tragedy of the commons, the opposite of capitalism: The bison were communal property, not private property, therefore they were abused and squandered for short-term gain that ultimately caused long-term problems as no one person or group was responsible for maintaining a healthy population.[6]


History of Bison conservation in Canada

The same article states that, funny enough, that

Federal government wildlife policy evolved from preservation of wilderness to utilitarian, scientific conservation and management of bison populations. The goals of these policies often contradicted themselves, aiming to simultaneously preserve wildlife, promote recreation, commercialize the bison, and assert state control over Aboriginal Canadians.


It is almost like there is literally no way for some people to analyze history without it being about the evils of white people asserting control and dominance over the native population. And, they are not wrong, because the motivations of most people in history is power, it is not wrong to analyze every move as an attempt to amplify or preserve one's power.

The history of Europe is the history of what particular groups of white people will do to other particular groups of white people to maintain or amplify their own power. So, it is not particularly damning if the same thing is done by whites abroad -- it's what whites do to each other.

And it is what the people of all races do within their own races, as well. Some even perhaps made incessant warfare spiritual and planned. This is reminiscent of the seasonal warfare that often could occur between native tribes in the North, where the goal was never extermination but just asserting dominance and gaining certain rites to hunting ground, and even initiating their braves into manhood. In cultures like the Asmat, perhaps they controlled their population by forcing men to take heads to earn their spot in the tribe. It'd be an easy way to keep the population strong and the numbers down for the whole region to force males into warfare to earn the right to live out their days and procreate -- indeed, one could even see how surplus males are a grave problem in any population, and why the Lion kills all of the young males when it takes over a new pride.
User avatar
By Verv
#15157103
late wrote:Schools teach science, not kook.


Uh huh.

They also want kids to play nice, so hell and brimfire speeches are less than welcome.


You would actually be misunderstanding Christianity if you thought that people spoke of fire & brimstone for any other purpose.

Now if they had roasted you on a spit and fed you to the kids, that might be genocidal.


We were just discussing this.

You might want to argue with @Pants-of-dog about how cultural genocide is not genocide.
#15157106
Verv wrote:Uh huh.



You would actually be misunderstanding Christianity if you thought that people spoke of fire & brimstone for any other purpose.



We were just discussing this.

You might want to argue with @Pants-of-dog about how cultural genocide is not genocide.


The discussion with someone that has embraced the noble victim status is futile. They get empowerment from victimhood and in terms of looking for reparations they are like a black hole. The desire for repair is too strong, nothing escapes. The distant past is always present and they cannot see how western nations bend over backwards to help the disenfranchised from other ethnic groups.
#15157110
Verv wrote:There's a lot of people who say that the policies were deliberately to attack the natives, and there are quotes out there to back it up, but the decline of the Buffalo seems inevitable.



History of Bison conservation in Canada

The same article states that, funny enough, that



It is almost like there is literally no way for some people to analyze history without it being about the evils of white people asserting control and dominance over the native population. And, they are not wrong, because the motivations of most people in history is power, it is not wrong to analyze every move as an attempt to amplify or preserve one's power.

The history of Europe is the history of what particular groups of white people will do to other particular groups of white people to maintain or amplify their own power. So, it is not particularly damning if the same thing is done by whites abroad -- it's what whites do to each other.

And it is what the people of all races do within their own races, as well. Some even perhaps made incessant warfare spiritual and planned. This is reminiscent of the seasonal warfare that often could occur between native tribes in the North, where the goal was never extermination but just asserting dominance and gaining certain rites to hunting ground, and even initiating their braves into manhood. In cultures like the Asmat, perhaps they controlled their population by forcing men to take heads to earn their spot in the tribe. It'd be an easy way to keep the population strong and the numbers down for the whole region to force males into warfare to earn the right to live out their days and procreate -- indeed, one could even see how surplus males are a grave problem in any population, and why the Lion kills all of the young males when it takes over a new pride.


Why are you mentioning all of this? Is there an argument you wish to make?

And, you are unable to find an example of Christians being oppressed in the same way.
#15157125
Verv wrote:

Uh huh.




Creationism was designed to sneak religion into public school.

The courts rejected it emphatically.

This reflects the intent of the Founding Fathers that the country be secular.

If you have a problem with that, the remedy is private school.
User avatar
By Verv
#15157128
late wrote:Creationism was designed to sneak religion into public school.

The courts rejected it emphatically.

This reflects the intent of the Founding Fathers that the country be secular.

If you have a problem with that, the remedy is private school.


This is completely wrong but it's OK because I know that you are thinking solely in terms of your life and the recent history of America.

Creationism is how people began referring to the traditional view that the Universe was created by God.

Back in the 1990s, creationism almost exclusively referred to what is now called Young Earth Creationism. I think there were movements to have young earth creationism taught next to science in school, but the most common thing people wanted was text books to mention the idea that God created the universe.

But I digress.

When I went to school, every year that I was there, the science teacher told us this:

You must be able to describe the evolutionary process/theory of evolution. Both times I learned evolution the teachers told us that we were free to say whatever our views were in the essay, but we had to be able to describe the evolutionary process. Questions based on evolution all were "According to the theory of evolution, which is correct..."

While theories of God creating the universe were not explicitly mentioned, we did get those in-depth in the Philosophy class that was offered in high school and was quite popular.

There was actually a school in a different part of the state that had an optional Bible class that was literally a guy teaching the contents of the Bible and different theories on it, though he was careful to not close the class to dissent or to cross some theoretical evangelical line in it.

I guess... in my ideal world...

- Philosophy would be a mandatory topic and all of the theories on God would be taught
- Science would cover evolution, include a sentence or two on 'God as a prime mover or intelligent designer' to appease theists, and have teachers do the 'according to evolution' wording.
- Eastern Orthodoxy would be the state religion and all children would spend a year in elementary school, middle school, and high school getting basic theological instruction & moral education from a nun, monk, deacon, or other clergy member. Attendance would be mandatory but dissent would be allowed, and people would still pass if they simply demonstrated knowledge of the content taught. In these courses, polite & basic overviews of other denominations & major religions would also be provided.

Since the latter is constitutionally prohibited, I guess I'd want to see the first two in the US, and I'd find that entirely agreeable.
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By Verv
#15157129
Pants-of-dog wrote:Why are you mentioning all of this? Is there an argument you wish to make?


I am just offering my thoughts & comments on the Buffalo and colonialism, as they intersect with racism. I am posting my opinions freely on a political forum.

I do not expect you to interact with them productively, as you simply do not cover anything that you cannot defend. It's fine.

And, you are unable to find an example of Christians being oppressed in the same way.


Well, sure, if you believe the theory that the Ukraine was a largely religious & rebellious Soviet republic, the Holodomor could be thought of as being an anti-Christian starvation based genocide. Of course, the motives were more political than religious, but it is impossible to think of Ukrainian dissidents as not having at least very strong CHristian contingencies. Let's not forget that something like 300,000 clergy were killed by the Soviets, after all.

Interesting thing -- yesterday marks the 6th anniversary of the 21 Martyrs of Libya!

Image

20 Egyptian Coptic Christians and a Ghanaian Christian had their heads cut off on a beach in Libya (presumarbly near Sirte) while praising God.

Christians face martyrdom at the hands of others to this day -- I would not say genocide, but it is certainly true that the Christians of places like Nineveh in Iraq/Syria are not doing so well.

Meanwhile, in Canada, it would be completely absurd to say that Indigenous Peoples are subjected to being beheaded in groups or having their places of worship bombed.
#15157155
Verv wrote:I am just offering my thoughts & comments on the Buffalo and colonialism, as they intersect with racism. I am posting my opinions freely on a political forum.

I do not expect you to interact with them productively, as you simply do not cover anything that you cannot defend. It's fine.


An opinion is not an argument.

Well, sure, if you believe the theory that the Ukraine was a largely religious & rebellious Soviet republic, the Holodomor could be thought of as being an anti-Christian starvation based genocide. Of course, the motives were more political than religious, but it is impossible to think of Ukrainian dissidents as not having at least very strong CHristian contingencies. Let's not forget that something like 300,000 clergy were killed by the Soviets, after all.

Interesting thing -- yesterday marks the 6th anniversary of the 21 Martyrs of Libya!

Image

20 Egyptian Coptic Christians and a Ghanaian Christian had their heads cut off on a beach in Libya (presumarbly near Sirte) while praising God.

Christians face martyrdom at the hands of others to this day -- I would not say genocide, but it is certainly true that the Christians of places like Nineveh in Iraq/Syria are not doing so well.

Meanwhile, in Canada, it would be completely absurd to say that Indigenous Peoples are subjected to being beheaded in groups or having their places of worship bombed.


So these examples of bigotry against Christians do not happen anymore, is what you are saying.

and they never happened in North America.
#15157176
Verv wrote:
This is completely wrong



You wish.

I may have gotten the label wrong, but I got the legal part right:

https://ncse.ngo/ten-major-court-cases- ... reationism

Btw, philosophy classes don't teach religion. I've had 4 of them.

Not that any accredited school would do it, but include one word of religion and it stops being a science class. Check my link.
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By Verv
#15157234
Pants-of-dog wrote:An opinion is not an argument.


Sure!

So these examples of bigotry against Christians do not happen anymore, is what you are saying.

and they never happened in North America.


Oh, so we are only talking about North America? I think this is artificially restricting the scope of the discussion.

We have gained a lot from talking about Canada, surely, but it is time for the debate to grow a bit, even if it is just to contextualize Canada.

You know, one of the 21 martyrs was from Ghana, and I have long thought that if Ghana and Canada came together as Ghanada, it would be beneficial to both societies.

late wrote:You wish.

I may have gotten the label wrong, but I got the legal part right:

https://ncse.ngo/ten-major-court-cases- ... reationism

Btw, philosophy classes don't teach religion. I've had 4 of them.

Not that any accredited school would do it, but include one word of religion and it stops being a science class. Check my link.


It is impossible to have a full understanding of philosophy without understanding God's role in philosophical systems.

Usually, the first thing high school philosophy introduction courses do after covering guys like Heraclitus is talk about Plato's Cave, and then Aristotle, at which point it's impossible to talk about philosophy without discussing theories of God like the Prime Mover.
--

Include one word of religion and it stops being a science class? I do not really understand how that would work at all.

It just sounds like you really hate religion and would be forced into a rage if someone dared to mention something about the supernatural amongst the natural., even though this would only be in passing. Yet, I cannot imagine someone talking about biological differences between the genders without shoehorning some platitudes about equality, or talking about sexual reproduction without having a Hooman Rights Campaigner inform us of the wonders of gender & sexuality beyond the binary or something.
#15157235
Verv wrote:Sure!

Oh, so we are only talking about North America? I think this is artificially restricting the scope of the discussion.

We have gained a lot from talking about Canada, surely, but it is time for the debate to grow a bit, even if it is just to contextualize Canada.

You know, one of the 21 martyrs was from Ghana, and I have long thought that if Ghana and Canada came together as Ghanada, it would be beneficial to both societies.

It is impossible to have a full understanding of philosophy without understanding God's role in philosophical systems.

Usually, the first thing high school philosophy introduction courses do after covering guys like Heraclitus is talk about Plato's Cave, and then Aristotle, at which point it's impossible to talk about philosophy without discussing theories of God like the Prime Mover.
--

Include one word of religion and it stops being a science class? I do not really understand how that would work at all.

It just sounds like you really hate religion and would be forced into a rage if someone dared to mention something about the supernatural amongst the natural., even though this would only be in passing. Yet, I cannot imagine someone talking about biological differences between the genders without shoehorning some platitudes about equality, or talking about sexual reproduction without having a Hooman Rights Campaigner inform us of the wonders of gender & sexuality beyond the binary or something.


As far as I can tell, this post has nothing to do with racism, which os the thread topic.

Please let me know if you wish to discuss racism. Thank you.
#15157245
Pants-of-dog wrote:As far as I can tell, this post has nothing to do with racism, which os the thread topic.

Please let me know if you wish to discuss racism. Thank you.


POD:

The problem is rather simple. If there was no racism those that are low in the hierarchy of competence would not have a valid excuse to explain their station in life. Within this context embracing the role of the noble victim and affirming racism as the cause of all the problems makes sense.

Racism has gone down markedly and in Western nations there are countless of programs designed to help the disenfranchised and to reduce any resemblance of racism. However, those in the 3rd wave religious anti-racist will never let go of the past and will see racism any time there is an unequal outcome. For those people living in the West is hell.

This 3rd wave anti-racist approach is ineffective; the reasons for those that remain low in the socioeconomic strata are multifactorial. Treating the problem with just one variable is highly ineffective.

Lastly expecting Europeans to fix the problem is not the solution. Sure, they need to be sympathetic, but the bulk of the work is to be done by you and others.
#15157246
Verv wrote:Oh, so we are only talking about North America? I think this is artificially restricting the scope of the discussion.

We have gained a lot from talking about Canada, surely, but it is time for the debate to grow a bit, even if it is just to contextualize Canada.

You know, one of the 21 martyrs was from Ghana, and I have long thought that if Ghana and Canada came together as Ghanada, it would be beneficial to both societies.


If you want, we can look at the two situations and see how they are different, and since this would undermine your belief that the situation of Christians is similar to the plight of Indigenous people.....

I mentioned earlier that Canada has a vested financial interest in eradicating Indigenous communities. This would end the current colonial relationship successfully for Canada. There is no colonial effort in the violence against Christians in Libya. It is, at best, an attempt by a local branch of ISIS to exert control over an area in the power void left by Western involvement in Libya. So, that is one major difference.

And Canada had state control, while these terrorists do not. So, another major difference.

Also, the previous attempt at genocide through starvation was systemic and systematic, while the terrorism is sporadic and opportunistic. Again, another difference.
User avatar
By Verv
#15157252
I had actually just thought it was sufficient to talk about how Christians have faced racism & bigotry before, as part of a larger discussion on racism & bigotry.

I also thought it was interesting to talk about starvation as a means of committing genocide when it has, in fact, been employed against what were probably largely Christian dissidents, though I admit I do not know the nature of the rebellious among the Ukrainians prior to the Holodomor.

And Canada had state control, while these terrorists do not. So, another major difference.


I am not sure that this matters since Canada has not been committing genocide against natives, and what genocide did occur was cultural genocide.

If what the Canadians did to the Natives was cultural genocide, then what the Communists did to their own communities was cultural genocide on steroids. Which, to me, indicates that the issues of racism need to be understood in a very big scope...

Race, itself, is a social construct, is it not?
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