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#15252035
@Tainari88 Men didn't devalue the work women do in the home. That's Modern Feminism that does that. Feminism tells you to go work and that you don't need a man. You are superior and men aren't necessary. It's a very unhealthy view.

In the attempt to become like men, in the workplace and other places, women are making themselves masculine. AT the same time, they are trying to feminize men, telling them it's OK to marry a "Boss Babe", who will dominate you. This is going against our very biology.

Men and women are not equal(equality of outcome, not opportunity). We are different and can never be equal because of it. We do, however, have different strengths and weaknesses that compliment each other. This is what makes a man and woman the best possible parents for children.

Girls get to see a man similar to what they will grow up to marry, and boys get to see the man they will grow up to be. The boy also learns how to love and respect a woman in a loving marriage, and vice versa.
#15252062
Godstud wrote:@Tainari88 Men didn't devalue the work women do in the home. That's Modern Feminism that does that. Feminism tells you to go work and that you don't need a man. You are superior and men aren't necessary. It's a very unhealthy view.

In the attempt to become like men, in the workplace and other places, women are making themselves masculine. AT the same time, they are trying to feminize men, telling them it's OK to marry a "Boss Babe", who will dominate you. This is going against our very biology.

Men and women are not equal(equality of outcome, not opportunity). We are different and can never be equal because of it. We do, however, have different strengths and weaknesses that compliment each other. This is what makes a man and woman the best possible parents for children.

Girls get to see a man similar to what they will grow up to marry, and boys get to see the man they will grow up to be. The boy also learns how to love and respect a woman in a loving marriage, and vice versa.


Godstud, I do think capitalism also played a role because they can pay women lower wages for the same type of work.

in terms of men devaluing women? Of course they do Godstud. I live in Mexico. There is a very serious lack of respect for women's work here. Machismo is very much alive and well. Washing clothes and cooking for men, and so on...I wish it was appreciated in many Mexican families as equal in value to the male contribution to the household but that is not the case. Latin America has a long way to go to talk about men and women as equals.

My husband has always worked outside the home, but there have been some moments or months of unemployment and I was the main breadwinner. But also there was my going to the university and working part time and him working full time, and supporting me. But IMHO women can't be dependent on their husbands to be the only breadwinners. It is too precarious Godstud. The man can get sick, or lose his job, and the family can be in deep trouble without anyone bringing home a paycheck. In the past the paycheck of one working man working full time was enough to sustain a wife and himself and a couple of kids. Now? It is doubtful. Women need to get an education and be able to find decent employment if the husband has a low income.

I don't mind working outside the home. But, I do think having a husband that is responsible is a very important part of being a functional family. I don't know how women go do raising a family by themselves. Way too hard. Most of the single mothers I know have backups. They got their parents or grandparents, their siblings, and community members helping out. Latchkey kids are an issue as well.

Extended family is always important for the Latin American family Godstud. Because in general, we are very poor people. Without a grand income. And as such? To survive it all you need personal relationships for backup with everything. It is similar in many nations that are not the wealthiest. The poor above all have to know how to rely on each other. Rugged individualism never really works with an income that is low.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 24 Oct 2022 03:56, edited 1 time in total.
#15252064
Work seen as predominantly womens is devalued in fact because value in a capitalist economy comes through property snd money.
The womens movements emerges specifically at the point women start getting paid.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/help/lib.htm
Lynn Beaton has analysed this process in some depth. Not only were women moving out of unpaid domestic service in marriage or other forms of bondage and servitude based on kinship, and into the labour market, but as wage-workers they were producing domestic appliances, foodstuffs and clothing and providing services such as hospitality, nursing and other forms of “women's work” which then supplanted the same work formerly performed outside the commodity market. That is, in the advanced industrial countries, on the basis of developments in manufacture and in technology and work-organisation generally, during this period women's work was socialised i.e commodified.
Putting it slightly differently, women transformed their labour from labour which took place outside of the exchange of commodities into labour which, like that of other workers — had value. It is no wonder then that this movement soon gave rise to the demand for Equal Pay and more fundamentally given the gender segmentation of the labour process, for “Equal Pay for work of Equal Value” and the struggle to prove in practice that women's work had value equal to men's work.


And what happens when such work is commodified? Its low pay but hard work.
https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/social.pdf
Another strategy is to commercialise child-care, thus moving the job into the market and giving women the choice of doing the same work for a wage, or doing a different job while their own kids are cared for in a childcare centre. This is probably more effective in giving women a choice, but it runs into a couple of problems. So long as child-care is stigmatised as “women’s work,” then it remains low-paid and women move out of their homes into low- paid jobs doing “women’s work.” There is no way out of this trap until the gender division of labour is broken down. Once women are recognised capable of the same kind of work as men, then women can command wages equal to their male partners and make working for a wage worth putting the kids into child-care. Meanwhile, with child-care no longer stigmatised as “women’s work” she is more likely to be left a fair share of domestic duties and child-care centres are treated as seriously as other service. In other words, the “location” — “women’s work” — has to be deconstructed altogether, and “woman” no longer a socially constructed location.

Making “women’s work” everyone’s responsibility, means getting men to take on that work and that generally means a fight for those stuck with “women’s work” not so much to change themselves or get better recognition for what they do (these too) but to get other people to accept their responsibility.

Men are doing more at home but its still women who primarily experience the tension between paid and unpaid work a ross their day to day life.

And one makes a mistake in assuming a gendered essence where what is manly is often a reflection of the characteristics entailed in positions where men are the majority as it meets some needs of society structurally.
https://pages.nyu.edu/jackson/future.of.gender/Readings/DownSoLong--WhyIsItSoHard.pdf
C onsider another example showing how beliefs about sex differences cloud people's analytical vision. How often have we heard question like: will women who enter high-status jobs or political positions end up looking like men or will the result of their entry be a change in the way business and politics is conducted? Implicit in this question are a set of strong assumptions: men have essential personality characteristics and cultural orientations that have shaped the terrain of high status jobs and women have different essential personality characteristics and cultural orientations. The conclusion is that and women's entry into these positions unleashes a conflict between their feminine essence and the dominant masculine essence that has shaped the positions. Either the positions must change to adapt to women's distinctive characteristics or the women must become masculine. (It is perhaps telling that those who raise this issue usually seem concerned only with women entering high-status positions; it is unclear if women becoming factory workers are believed immune or unimportant.) The analytical flaw here i assuming that masculinity has shaped the character of jobs rather than that jobs have shaped masculinity. In her well-known book Men and Women of the Corporation, Rosabeth Kanter argued persuasively that the personality characteristics associated with male and female corporate employees really reflected the contours of their positions. The implication is simple and straightforward. Women who enter high-status positions will look about the same as men in those positions not because they are becoming masculine, but because they're adapting to the demands and opportunities of the position, just like men.


Basically one attributes the appearence of men commonly doing something as originate internally from their nature but abstract the social relations which inform their activity.

It goes down the path of not explaining what one observes but simply reifying those observations in an arbitrary association to something somehow meant to be specifically male but causal of behavior.
https://epistemicepistles.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/a-wittgensteinian-critique-of-conceptual-confusion-in-psychological-research/
Referentialist views of language treat words as standing for, or referring to, objects. While Wittgenstein’s Tractatus[9] espoused such a view, he later came to think one of the Tractatus crucial failings was that it ignored the difference between alternate kinds of words and uses of language.[10] Consider the words ‘table’, ‘blue’ and ‘hot’, these do not all signify objects, and understanding the words does not in each case involve knowing what objects they stand for. Rather, according to Wittgenstein, it involves knowing how the words are used.[11] Consequently treating reference as central to meaning gives a one sided and inaccurate view of language.

However in psychology this referentialist doctrine seems alive: In the misplaced reification of concepts as ‘concrete’ tangible things. As Gould[12] argues, there is a strong tendency to believe that whatever received a name must be an entity or being, having an independent existence of its own. However on a Wittgensteinian take, we can reasonably be sure that no such ‘concept-entities’ can be found among the neurons in a person’s skull, they are concepts not concrete things. Confusing the two is equivalent to confusing a “map with a territory.” [13] Essentially it involves taking a pattern of behaviour, naming it, then taking this named thing to be a physical entity, then viewing someone’s behaviour as caused by having this entity inside them. Confusing psychological concepts with inner entities, like so, leads to postulating metaphysical explanations which actuality explain nothing. It is equivalent to saying a volcano erupts because it has ‘eruptability’ inside, or to say someone’s nervous behaviour is caused by an inner ‘neuroses’. This is merely to repeat the observation that they tend to behave in a nervous manner. The explanation merely repeats the description of the initial behaviour, yet the vacuousness of the explanation is concealed by pointing to a mystified inner entity; ‘neurosis’. This form of referentialism survives in psychology and leads to much conceptual confusion, distorting our notion of causality and providing only vacuous explanations[J1] .[14]


Or to out it more crudely.
“ A Negro is a Negro. He only becomes a slave in certain relations.” - Karl Marx.
Abstract one from their real world relations and they still retain such influences in their being but you analytically cut off the ability to explain their being because you render them an idea without what is essential to them. I cannot explain a single action outside the wider context and activities that give meaning to my action.
Similiar what is considered masculine is but temporary norms based on present demographic trends and activity. Some which history has shown to not be true to an inner nature but of structural barriers.

Overall I am not sure what feminist theorists you’re speaking of as much as women you might be exposed to in media. Because it comes off too crude and lacking nuance that it seems an attack on a particular conception which is possible when one lacks specific examples. I can speak broadly about others yet no one by not using a specific exemplar that is representative of a trend which can be contested.
#15252065
@Tainari88 A traditional man respects and appreciates the work done in the home, by the traditional woman. You're a fool if you don't.

Of course, if necessity means you both have to work then you need to split duties in the home. That goes without saying. capitalism has a lot to do with that, by making it so a single income isn't likely to support a family.
#15252074
Godstud wrote:@Tainari88 A traditional man respects and appreciates the work done in the home, by the traditional woman. You're a fool if you don't.

Of course, if necessity means you both have to work then you need to split duties in the home. That goes without saying. capitalism has a lot to do with that, by making it so a single income isn't likely to support a family.


There are a lot of foolish men then. My grandfather never really appreciated what my grandmother did in the house. (Maternal grandparents).

My father lost his dad to stomach cancer when he was 8 years old. So his older widowed mother raised him alone. She was an orphan and her mother died giving birth to her. It is always important to be able to support yourself. As a woman that is important.

I am lucky though. My father was never a machista. My mother had a very important career in her field and my father liked staying home and taking care of his daughters. He was not the best housekeeper or cook, but he sure was the most entertaining, great storyteller and artist, and loved having fun. I am quite happy with how I was raised.

I love fathers and fatherhood Godstud. Because I was raised at home by a loving father and a very loving mother but she was the breadwinner. Not traditional.

And my father was a feminist. He thought women could do or be anything. Lol. I adored him. Because of how he was? I have tremendous love for men. In general. ;)
#15252220
Godstud wrote:Of course, if necessity means you both have to work then you need to split duties in the home. That goes without saying.

Yeah, I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.
I'll have this discussion with you in another thread, if you want.

I'm not saying there are not some situations and some couples where it can work, but a huge number of marriages have fallen apart when the man was expected to contribute equally to the household tasks. It's often just not realistic and those very expectations end up breeding festering resentment in the woman.
#15252222
Yes, economic reasons are the primary reason for divorces. It cannot be 50/50 unless they are BOTH making the same amount.

Modern women want to have their cake and eat it, too.
#15252227
Okay, this is a great discussion, but it's going off topic.
I always wonder why most of the good discussions seem to take place in a thread that was not really about the same topic and was not where those discussions best belonged.
I guess discussions about one thing just get people's thoughts jogging.
#15252252
Puffer Fish wrote:Yeah, I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.
I'll have this discussion with you in another thread, if you want.

I'm not saying there are not some situations and some couples where it can work, but a huge number of marriages have fallen apart when the man was expected to contribute equally to the household tasks. It's often just not realistic and those very expectations end up breeding festering resentment in the woman.


In western societies, men do not do 50% of the house chores. Even among the very few men who do a lot of house chores, there are almost none who do the logistical work required for a family.

Women do this work. It is unpaid, and they have to take time off their paid work to do it. Men do not take this time off. Hence, a wage gap.
#15252254
Pants-of-dog wrote:In western societies, men do not do 50% of the house chores.
In Western society, most men are the breadwinners and make the most money.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Even among the very few men who do a lot of house chores, there are almost none who do the logistical work required for a family.
If the men are the primary breadwinners and expected to do the work, then this is reasonable.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Women do this work. It is unpaid, and they have to take time off their paid work to do it. Men do not take this time off. Hence, a wage gap.
Household chores have always been unpaid. That has not changed. Only perception of it has. If woman does 25% of the income, then she should do 75% of the household chores. If she does 50% then it should be 50%. The same would apply if the situations were reversed.

The wage gap, as I've already shown isn't as simple as what you'd like to make it out to be. Feminists ignore this reality.

The bottom line: the 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time. It does not account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure or hours worked per week. When such relevant factors are considered, the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing.

Wage gap activists say women with identical backgrounds and jobs as men still earn less. But they always fail to take into account critical variables. Activist groups like the National Organization for Women have a fallback position: that women’s education and career choices are not truly free—they are driven by powerful sexist stereotypes. In this view, women’s tendency to retreat from the workplace to raise children or to enter fields like early childhood education and psychology, rather than better paying professions like petroleum engineering, is evidence of continued social coercion. Here is the problem: American women are among the best informed and most self-determining human beings in the world. To say that they are manipulated into their life choices by forces beyond their control is divorced from reality and demeaning, to boot.
https://time.com/3222543/wage-pay-gap-myth-feminism/
#15252256
@Godstud

When you explain why women are forced to more unpaid work (because men feel they do not have to because they make more money) and therefore must take time off paid work, you are agreeing with me.

Whomever wrote that opinion piece agrees with my facts. They just ignore the sexist causes of those facts,
#15252259
Pants-of-dog wrote:When you explain why women are forced to more unpaid work (because men feel they do not have to because they make more money) and therefore must take time off paid work, you are agreeing with me.
Raising your own children is NOT unpaid labour!!! That's delusional!

Raising children, and the duties associated with that, is a choice.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Whomever wrote that opinion piece agrees with my facts. They just ignore the sexist causes of those facts
No. You ignored the facts you did not like and then blame it on the exception.

It is illegal to pay a woman who does the same job, with the same experience and qualifications, less than a man. Your sexism argument is bullshit.
#15252261
Godstud wrote:Raising your own children is NOT unpaid labour!!! That's delusional!

Raising children, and the duties associated with that, is a choice.

No. You ignored the facts you did not like and then blame it on the exception.

It is illegal to pay a woman who does the same job, with the same experience and qualifications, less than a man. Your sexism argument is bullshit.


Lol. I am not getting paid for raising kids. My mom did not. How much do you pay your wife for the work she does around the house? I actually laughed out loud.

And again, the wage gap is due to the fact that women take time off their careers to do unpaid childcare and family work. It has nothing to do with the fact that it is “illegal to pay a woman who does the same job, with the same experience and qualifications, less than a man”, which is irrelevant to my claim,
#15252262
No one gets paid for raising their own kids. You are the one making the argument that caring for children is a "job".

Pants-of-dog wrote:And again, the wage gap is due to the fact that women take time off their careers to do unpaid childcare and family work.
No. They take time off because they CHOOSE to have a family, in lieu of a career. They are not "forced". :roll:

Unpaid childcare and family work? How disingenuous. You are caring for your children.

Pants-of-dog wrote:It has nothing to do with the fact that it is “illegal to pay a woman who does the same job, with the same experience and qualifications, less than a man”, which is irrelevant to my claim,
Your claim is that men and women are biologically identical. They are not. Men do not NEED to take time off from work, because they do not GET pregnant, and cannot breastfeed the children.

This is not sexism. This is reality.
#15252264
Godstud wrote:No one gets paid for raising their own kids. You are the one making the argument that caring for children is a "job".


So you agree that it is unpaid work.

No. They take time off because they CHOOSE to have a family, in lieu of a career. They are not "forced". :roll:


No one said “forced”.

But you do not seem to disagree that women take more time off to do unpaid family work and this results in career losses and setbacks that men generally do not deal with,

Unpaid childcare and family work? How disingenuous. You are caring for your children.


Yes, and it is unpaid and my career is being set back.

Your claim is that men and women are biologically identical. They are not. Men do not NEED to take time off from work, because they do not GET pregnant, and cannot breastfeed the children.

This is not sexism. This is reality.


No, I did not claim that.
#15252265
Pants-of-dog wrote:No one said “forced”.
YOU did say that.
Pants-of-dog wrote:When you explain why women are forced to more unpaid work
I never said that. You did.

Pants-of-dog wrote:But you do not seem to disagree that women take more time off to do unpaid family work and this results in career losses and setbacks that men generally do not deal with,
Yes. That's called REALITY. It's not sexist. It's just the way it is.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Whomever wrote that opinion piece agrees with my facts.
No. You are disputing this with your claim that sexism it a major factor. It is not.

Pants-of-dog wrote:They just ignore the sexist causes of those facts,
No. They ignore it because it's NOT a fact. As already pointed out, discrimination based on sex is actually very rare in the workplace. There are laws in place to prevent this and the sexism in the workplace usually benefits women.

Exceptions do not make the rule, and are statistically irrelevant.
#15252268
Godstud wrote:YOU did say that.
I never said that. You did.

Yes. That's called REALITY. It's not sexist. It's just the way it is.

No. You are disputing this with your claim that sexism it a major factor. It is not.

No. They ignore it because it's NOT a fact. As already pointed out, discrimination based on sex is actually very rare in the workplace. There are laws in place to prevent this and the sexism in the workplace usually benefits women.

Exceptions do not make the rule, and are statistically irrelevant.


None of this addresses my argument.

At this point, I am going to simply assert that my claim is correct and yo are unable to disprove it because it is true.

The wage gap is a result of women being expected to take time off their career to do unpaid family work.
#15252273
Pants-of-dog wrote:The wage gap is a result of women being expected to take time off their career to do unpaid family work.
They are not "expected" to do it(It is not "unpaid work". That is disingenuous rubbish). They MUST take time off from a career if they CHOOSE to have a family.

Yes. They have a choice! Choices come with consequences. You cannot have it all.

If I choose to have children, then I take on a long-term commitment to them that will involve me making many sacrifices for them. That's life. That's my choice. That's the choice of every parent.


You, literally, have no argument. You are ignoring all the facts in your attempt to label everything as "SEXISM!!!".
#15252352
Pants-of-dog wrote:Why must women do this, but not men?
Only women can get pregnant. Biological differences make women ideal nurturers.

You are just trolling. You can't seriously be that stupid.
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