Killing a baby to have a baby... (in vitro fertilization and fetus termination) - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15274098
Killing a baby to have a baby...

I recently saw an opinion article from USA Today, with the headline:

" IVF made me a mom. Abortion ban bills could take that option from others. "

I celebrate Mother's Day thanks to IVF. Abortion bills could change that (usatoday.com),
Kristin Dillensnyder, May 14, 2023

In it, the writer claims that abortion bans will -- and this is highly ironic -- prevent women who want to have babies from being able to have them.

"How would it do that?!?" was my first thought was.

This has to do with in vitro fertilisation (IVF). Some women have trouble being able to have a baby. So these women seek assistance from a fertility clinic, where an embryo is implanted into their uterus. (the so-called "test tube baby")
The issue is, however, that there's a high chance an embryo will not take. And it's kind of an expensive procedure to go in there. And I also a woman does not want to be waiting around for two months in case it didn't work the first time. So very often what they will do is implant TWO or THREE embryos.
Even though the woman was really only desiring one baby.

Now, what they expect will happen is that probably not all of those embryos will take. So the woman might end up with one baby growing in there, or sometimes twins.

But it is a possibility that all the embryos might take. And in that case, the woman could wind up with more babies in there than she wanted or was expecting.

So you know what they usually do? They ABORT one of them.
Except by that time it's not just an embryo any longer but has grown into a fetus, with arms and legs. (They don't know how many have actually taken until they are big enough to be seen on ultrasound)
It's a very common practice in IVF.

So what this is, it's a woman killing one of her babies in order to have another.
Highly ironic and paradoxical.


Now it's true, usually if a woman just has twins, she'll end up choosing to keep them. She might have preferred just a single baby, but most of these women are so desperate to have a baby that they view being able to have two as a blessing.
But with this reproductive technology seen as just "a choice", there are an increasing number of women these days who choose to terminate one of the twins because they only wanted one.

More common, however, are women who were implanted with three embryos, all of them took and started growing, and she doesn't want to end up with triplets. Which is kind of understandable. That's going to be a bit of a strain on her body with three babies growing inside there at once, and then it's going to be a lot of work to care for three babies at the same time. And a lot of women these days only want families with two children.
So very commonly in this situation she will decide to have a selective termination. And if they're going to knock off one of the fetuses while they're in there, why not two? Making the pregnancy go back down to one baby.

I found it amazing that this opinion article, appearing in a major U.S. magazine, had the audacity to publicly cite this as a REASON women "need" abortion.

Women are willing to kill one of their developing children in the womb to be able to have another child. They are CHOOSING this, knowing this could be a likely outcome.

Normally in the case of abortion a woman is choosing to kill because she DOES NOT want a baby and does not want a pregnancy. She never wanted to get pregnant in the first place.
But this in many ways is like the opposite of that.

It seems these days, a lot of women are about "ME, ME, ME".
They think motherhood and having a baby is all about THEM and what they want. They only choose it because they think they will enjoy having a baby and being a mother.
A woman who actually cared about her offspring would not choose to terminate one of her developing children to follow her dream of being a mother and bringing another child into existence.
They decide to terminate the fetus even though there is no indication there is anything wrong with it, and usually the fetus singled out for destruction is chosen completely randomly. It could easily have been one or the other.
#15274125
Most people who get fertilized via invitro take the chance of having twins. I have a friend who has two sets of twin daughters, because of this.

I don't think that abortion should be used as birth control. I think that they should accept the twins if such occurs, particularly since having kids is the goal. Aborting one of them is still abortion, and for the worst reasons possible.

I don't think abortion should be an option when you are trying to have children.

Puffer Fish wrote:It seems these days, a lot of women are about "ME, ME, ME"
You can thank modern Feminism for that.

Puffer Fish wrote:A woman who actually cared about her offspring would not choose to terminate one of her developing children to follow her dream of being a mother and bringing another child into existence.
I agree 100%.
#15274139
In the UK you're only allowed to implant one embryo at a time due to the risk of multiple pregnancies occurring. If you have triplets you have to feed them before they cry from hunger because their stomachs are so small that they use up more calories during their cry then they gain from the milk.
#15274224
AFAIK wrote:In the UK you're only allowed to implant one embryo at a time due to the risk of multiple pregnancies occurring. If you have triplets you have to feed them before they cry from hunger because their stomachs are so small that they use up more calories during their cry then they gain from the milk.

I'd also be okay allowing the woman to be implanted with two embryos, so long as she was required to sign a legal form prohibiting her from seeking a termination (absent the issue of fetal abnormality). She would have to accept the possibility that she might end up with twins.

However, this probably would not be seen as acceptable in the UK because they do not want to do anything that might curtail a woman's ability to choose abortion, even if she made a prior agreement to the contrary.
#15274225
AFAIK wrote:In the UK you're only allowed to implant one embryo at a time due to the risk of multiple pregnancies occurring.

I appreciate your reply, and I respect you as a poster, but I think in this case your information may be wrong.

From several papers I am reading, it is only "recommended practice" to only implant one embryo at a time, but there do not appear to be any laws, regulations, or medical standards to require that.

This is from a UK Fertility clinic, page published in 2017 :
"In most instances, your fertility care provider will consider transferring more than one embryo if you are over the age of 36 or have had previous implantation failure. This is to increase the chances of successful implantation and pregnancy."
"if you have two embryos transferred the chances of implantation are higher, not lower, with more embryos."

https://www.conceptfertility.co.uk/2017 ... the-risks/

In the UK, the median age of women who are undergoing IVF is 35.7 , which means around half of them are going to be implanted with multiple embryos.
#15274228
So the article is correct in claiming that anti-abortion bills could prevent women from getting pregnant.

If the point is to save kids, then anti-abortion bills will not do this in this case. This is because the most likely outcome would be a policy of implanting a single embryo at a time. Note that this would not save kids, and would instead stop them from ever existing in the first place.

But if the idea is to control the reproductive rights of women without their consent, then this seems to be a fringe benefit.
#15274230
Pants-of-dog wrote:But if the idea is to control the reproductive rights of women without their consent, then this seems to be a fringe benefit.
This is not about that, and women have reproductive rights, already. This is about preventing an abortion during an invitro fertilization process, when two embryos are fertilized, instead of 1.
#15274245
Pants-of-dog wrote:Note that this would not save kids, and would instead stop them from ever existing in the first place.

Some believe not having a child is better than aborting one.


Remember, they don't find out how many embryos successfully took in there until the embryos grow into fetuses and they can see them waving on an ultrasound screen.

I'm okay if she wants to be implanted with two embryos. But she needs to not abort.

If you decide to get implanted with two embryos, you accept the possibility and responsibility of twins.
#15274250
To try to make this debate "fair", here's the argument from the other side:

IVF: In defense of multiple embryo transfers (Slate.com)

"However, there's growing enthusiasm among reproductive specialists for an even more extreme approach: limiting that number to just one embryo. ...
in rare circumstances, it also prevents these parents of IVF twins from having to wrestle with the ethical dilemma of terminating one of their fetuses -- like the couples described in a recent New York Times Magazine article. ...
there are still good reasons to keep the old method of throwing a bunch of embryos into a uterus and seeing what sticks, particularly for women who want to get pregnant as quickly and cheaply as possible. The most obvious is that despite recent reports of promising pregnancy rates, an IVF patient’s chances of conceiving when only one embryo is transferred are simply not as high as when more embryos are transferred ..."

"The clinical pregnancy rate was 32 percent for the single transfer group compared with 42 percent for the other method. That's a significant difference in a field in which doctors covet every percentage point and patients have thousands of dollars on the line -- and, in many cases, little time to waste.
IVF is largely a numbers games. The more embryos doctors put back in you, the better chance you have of one implanting and growing into a baby."

"The main problem, however, is that for each new frozen transfer, she must wait three to eight more weeks, take more estrogen and progesterone (to help embryos implant) and pay $2,500 to $4,500 in addition to the cost of the first cycle. ...
That's not to mention the angst factor. If a woman has been trying for years to get pregnant, the last thing she wants to hear is another, 'You have a negative pregnancy result' any more times than she has to."​
#15274289
Godstud wrote:No, I did not. You read into it what you wanted. :knife:


Then your argument is so unclear that people do not know what it is.

——————

Puffer Fish wrote:Some believe not having a child is better than aborting one.

Remember, they don't find out how many embryos successfully took in there until the embryos grow into fetuses and they can see them waving on an ultrasound screen.

I'm okay if she wants to be implanted with two embryos. But she needs to not abort.

If you decide to get implanted with two embryos, you accept the possibility and responsibility of twins.


No, I disagree.

Why should your personal opinion be law?
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