[brillo]

Lately I've been working on a presentation for TOK class (Theory of Knowledge for those unfamiliar with the IB) that concerns the different arguments used in debates about abortion. I have been perusing different forums trying to get a sense of the way in which most people approach the topic, and was surprised to not find any threads about abortion at this particular forum. So, are there any ardent feminists or other people out there that would like to state their opinion on the subject?

[Smith 2.0]

I did the IB. Where abouts are you studying Brillo?

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61

The above thread contains quite a bit on this subject.

[Vivisekt]

In addition to the older thread that Smith posted, there is a current thread on abortion right here: http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/view ... 27&start=0 It has all sorts of detailed arguments and opinions both for and against abortion.


It's actually just a few posts below this one, in this forum...

[Smith 2.0]

It's actually just a few posts below this one, in this forum...

I need to check this forum more often....

[brillo]

I'm currently studying (and procrastinating ) in austria. Thanks for letting me know about the other abortion thread, I'm sure to be occupied with that for a while now.

[Antihero]

In my opinion abortion is none of my business.Or any males for that matter. It is for females to decide.

[GandalfTheGrey]

and was surprised to not find any threads about abortion at this particular forum.

What?? There are several threads about abortion. Look a bit harder

[Todd D.]

I'm not sure if you would prefer to bump an older thread or to post thoughts in this one, so for now I'll just post here.

My problem with abortion is twofold. From a religious perspective, I believe that life begins at conception, and that from that moment, the child has a right to life, and abortion violates that right. Now I understand the concept of a woman's rights, but to me in the absence of rape, the decision was made to accept responsibility for the consequences of her actions (namely, having sex), when she participated in that activity. It may sound cold, but I don't believe that I can shoot my 3 year old if I can no longer financially support him, so I don't think it matters how young the child is, I don't have a right to kill him or her. Nevertheless, I concede that this point of view is based mostly on my religious convictions, of which it's hard to base public policy on.

My second objection however, is all about fairness. Let's say that a woman get's pregnant, and that she wants to keep the child. She can pursue various legal avenues to force the father to pay for child support. Now let's say the shoe is on the other foot, and the woman wants an abortion but the man wants to keep the child. Not only does the woman not have to pay for child support, but the woman doesn't even have to carry the child to term, since it would be a violation of a woman's right to choose to make her keep the child and forfeit it to the father of the baby. The problem I see with this is that the man is responsible for his actions to the woman, but the woman shoulders no responsibility if the man wants to keep the child. Quite simply, it's biased against males. I think that IF we allow abortion in the cases of consentual sex, then the decision for an abortion should likewise be consentual.

[XHerakleitos]

The most fundamental thing we must come to realize with respect to abortion is that law is not the proper vehicle for approaching the matter. I.e., not any more.

Technological developments have already made abortion a relatively simple matter....and this trend will only deepen. Attempting to arrest this is simply a waste of time.

Christians who oppose abortion on whatever ground will have to synch up with the general attitude of Christianity toward law itself.

Addressing abortion will require a rhetoric capable of teasing forth and cultivating an interior law, a law of the heart.

[IMKant]

In my opinion abortion is none of my business.Or any males for that matter. It is for females to decide.

And so the death so many innocent children is none of your bussiness? Interesting.

[Noumenon]

I've already detailed my argument in the other thread, but here are the basics again:

1. Individual human beings have rights
2. A fetus is an individual human being
3. Therefore a fetus has rights, including the right to life

Now in support of premise 2, a fetus is obviously human since it has 46 chromosomes. Now whether it is an individual is bit more complicated. I believe that your mind determines your individuality, so when a fetus develops a mind it becomes an individual. When exactly it does this is not known, but it would make sense to exercise caution until we do know. There is a point when we definitely know it has a mind, and a point where we know it doesn't. But it is the gray area in between that we must be careful of. I propose that we stop abortions during this gray area in order to avoid the possibility of killing an individual human being with rights.

So basically my belief is that abortion is okay for a short period of time after conception, because the fetus has not developed a mind yet. So if rape or incest occurs, the abortion must take place during this time period. After that, there is no excuse for violating its rights, not even rape or incest. In the case of the mother's life being threatened, the right of the mother to live trumps the fetus's, so abortion is okay then.

[Augur79]

On a personal note, I abhor the thought of abortion. But if a person can be cold and callous enough to abort a child, I fear for their humanity or even if they can be considered human.

As for the fetus I can see both sides arguments. Pro abortion believes since the fetus is not independent of the mothers womb, having to thrive off the nutrients the mother ingests and the oxygen in her bloodstream, that it's not actually living in the traditional sense. But biology tells us that if cells are dividing, whether it has any type of sentience, is considered to be living.

It's a tough subject. There needs to be alternatives to abortion. Perhaps more emphasis on adoption and such.

[Stan]

Lets face it. Abortion as well as capital punishment are barbaric acts.

I would never ever kill my own offspring. This has nothing to do with religion. I simply think it is wrong to kill a human.

However, if my neighbor or others want to kill their offspring I will not get in the way-------- that is not my business. SO in a sense I am pro-choice. let them kill their babies. As long as it is not my child---- who cares!

Hopefully one day we will not be as barbaric and deal with the issue differently.

[Noumenon]

However, if my neighbor or others want to kill their offspring I will not get in the way-------- that is not my business. SO in a sense I am pro-choice. let them kill their babies. As long as it is not my child---- who cares!

So you really don't care that Andrea Yates drowned all five of her children?

Children are not the property of their parents. They have rights because they are individual human beings, just like fetuses in later development.

[IMKant]

Pro abortion believes since the fetus is not independent of the mothers womb, having to thrive off the nutrients the mother ingests and the oxygen in her bloodstream, that it's not actually living in the traditional sense. But biology tells us that if cells are dividing, whether it has any type of sentience, is considered to be living.

It's a tough subject. There needs to be alternatives to abortion. Perhaps more emphasis on adoption and such.

Not to metion the fact that a new born baby can not live without its mother anymore than a fetus can.
One the second point I feel that making fetuses viable outside of the mothers womb sooner than they are now would be a heldful thing to stop people froming having to murder in order to save a womens life.

[Stan]

So you really don't care that Andrea Yates drowned all five of her children?

I thought we were talking about abortion of a fetus.

[Noumenon]

We were, but you said you don't care if a parent kills their offspring. I took that to mean not only fetuses, but children as well.

[Lockbox]

Although I find abortion in some cases to be rather deplorable, calling it murder seems far-fetched to me (especially comparing it to the Andrea Yates thing). As long as the abortion takes place early in the pregnancy, I wouldn't hold it against the mother. People make mistakes. Mistakes such as this could ruin a person's life. Some people suggest adoption, but we all know most parents couldn't bring themselves to give their children away once they are born. Why put two people through a lifetime of misery when you could just prevent one from living and have the other live a happier life? Unless you believe that our soul (life force, whatever) is destroyed when we die, I fail to see how a seriously considered abortion constitutes immorality.

[Political Interest]

Brillo what school do you go to?, Smith what school did you study at?.

[Mr. Minister L]

I disagree entirely with abortion. Most of the views that have already been presented I agree with. I would just like to make another point to counteract what Lockbox said.

You can't argue that the mother and the child will live a lifetime of misery if she doesn't abort. My own mother became pregnant with me when she was eighteen in her senior year of highschool. She found out shortly after she had been accepted to a local community college. She didn't have enough money to pay for both a child and the college. In this situation, most people that support abortion would argue that it is for the better to have the operation. My mother didn't. I'm now eighteen being paid to go to college because of good grades, test scores, extracurriculars, etc. And my mother and father are happily married, have been since before I was born. This is just one example of how things don't have to be horrible for the family.

I can understand your argument that people make mistakes. Nobody is perfect. But my reason for still not agreeing with abortion has to do with the world culture as a whole.
As technology and personal freedoms continue to advance, people will have a wider range of choices to make in their lives. This means that you also have greater room to screw up royally. I don't think that supporting a practice such as this which (except in the case of rape) boils down to people not accepting responsibility for their actions. If this is allowed to continue, the consequences could be far worse.

P.S. In my past readings on this forum. I found several people arguing that personal experiences should not be used since there is no way to validate them. I, for the most part, agree. I cited my own case simply because I assume you are all intelligent enough to realize that it possible and not very unlikely, even if you don't believe me.