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#14875127
Hindsite wrote:It is for the majority of Christians who have become accustomed to celebrating the date as the birth of the Son of God as the pagans celebrated the birth of the sun. It is not easy to change custom, even when true knowledge becomes known. So why not let it be?


Well let's see... you are the one who is claiming that Trump is making Christmas sooo much more holier. And you are the one who calls him "Trump of God" when he could be the modern day anti-Christ with his disregard for the common man and foreigners.
#14875130
MistyTiger wrote:Well let's see... you are the one who is claiming that Trump is making Christmas sooo much more holier.

I don't recall saying that.

MistyTiger wrote: And you are the one who calls him "Trump of God" when he could be the modern day anti-Christ with his disregard for the common man and foreigners.

No, the Trump of God can not be the anti-Christ.
#14875136
Hindsite wrote:Trump putting Christ back in Christmas


Let's see what some of the world's Christian leaders have to say about the Christianity of Trump and his supporters.

Evangelical Christians 'uncritical' in support for Trump, UK bishop says


Paul Bayes, bishop of Liverpool, accuses some religious leaders of ‘colluding with a system that marginalises the poor’


A senior Church of England bishop has lambasted conservative evangelical Christians in the US for their “uncritical support” of Donald Trump, urging them to reflect on how their endorsement of the president relates to their faith.

Paul Bayes, the bishop of Liverpool, said “self-styled evangelicals” risked bringing the word evangelical into disrepute, and added there was no justification for Christians contradicting God’s teaching to protect the poor and the weak.

Bayes told the Guardian: “Some of the things that have been said by religious leaders seem to collude with a system that marginalises the poor, a system which builds walls instead of bridges, a system which says people on the margins of society should be excluded, a system which says we’re not welcoming people any more into our country.

Paul Bayes: ‘If people want to support rightwing populism … how are they going to relate that to their Christian faith?’ Photograph: Rebecca Lupton for the Guardian

“Whenever people say those kinds of things, they need to be able to justify that they’re saying those things as Christians, and I do not believe it’s justifiable.”

He said he regretted that “people who call themselves evangelical in the US seem to be uncritically accepting” positions taken by Trump and his allies.

“Some quite significant so-called evangelical leaders are uncritically supporting people in ways that imply they are colluding or playing down the seriousness of things which in other parts of their lives [they] would see as really important,” Bayes added.

He stressed that not all evangelicals were Trump supporters, saying there were “many, many Christians who are trying to proclaim the gospel as we’ve received it, even if that means political leaders have to be challenged”.

Last month, Justin Welby, the archbishop of Canterbury, said he could not comprehend the strength of support for Trump among conservative evangelicals in the US. “I really genuinely do not understand where that is coming from,” he told ITV’s Peston on Sunday programme.

In his Christmas Day sermon at Canterbury Cathedral, Welby criticised “populist leaders that deceive” their people, in comments interpreted as being aimed at Trump.

According to the Washington-based Pew Research Center, 80% of self-identified white evangelical Christians said they voted for Trump in the 2016 election, and three-quarters have since said they approve of his presidency.

Bayes, who has been bishop of Liverpool since 2014, said: “If people want to support rightwing populism anywhere in the world, they are free to do so. The question is, how are they going to relate that to their Christian faith?

“And if what I believe are the clear teachings of the gospel about love for all, the desire for justice and for making sure marginalised and defenceless people are protected, if it looks as though those teachings are being contradicted, then I think there is a need to say so.”

Bayes was speaking to mark the launch of a new Christian charity, which he is chairing, aimed at eliminating discrimination based on sexuality or gender.

The Ozanne Foundation will work with religious organisations around the world on LGBTI, gender and sexuality issues, as well as conflict resolution and education. It will be led by Jayne Ozanne, a prominent campaigner for equality within the C of E. Along with Bayes, the charity’s trustees and advisers include David Ison, the dean of St Paul’s Cathedral, Jeffrey John, the dean of St Albans, and Martyn Percy, the dean of Christ Church, Oxford.

Bayes has previously called for far-reaching change in C of E attitudes to LGBTI people, saying he had been “profoundly changed” by encounters with lesbian and gay Christians, including within his own family. “I have come to believe that we need to change the church,” he said last year.

The Ozanne Foundation would provide “strong and clear advocacy, not only for LGBTI inclusion, but against other forms of discrimination and hurt in the church”, he said. “There is room in the church for people who strongly and clearly advocate for change, and I want to support them.”

The church’s “institutional inertia” needed to be countered, Bayes added. “There is no doubt that the church at the moment is on a journey, and that journey needs to arrive at a place of inclusion further on than we are at the moment.

“What matters to me in terms of my own responsibility and my own advocacy is that we don’t settle for second best, that we keep trying to move the organisation forward.”


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -liverpool

The shallow hypocrisy, unsurpassed ignorance, and undignified egoism of American evangelicals is just glorious. And they will never be able to claim to support family values again, not when we have endless statements from them in support of the Groper-in-Chief and the probable child molester in Alabama.
#14875142
Hey Hindsite.

I was wondering your opinion on the evidence Jesus was born on December 25.

Surely you must as a Christian realise the evidence he was possibly born on that day is in fact there.

Protestants hellbent on opposing December 25th fail to realise the story of the Magi gives compelling support to the date given we in fact can basically use computers to emulate exactly what was happening in the night sky in Israel on December 25th 2BC(they got the year wrong by 1) or any other date for that matter.

Anyone looking out from Jerusalem saw Jupiter, the King Wandering Star(that's what Planet means), hovering brighter than usual above Bethlehem after having made motions which indicated the birth of a Jewish King to the ancient astrological Magi.

It gives more support to December 25th than the section which states the animals were outside gives to opposing the date(because Israel is near the equator and it's winters are warm winters similar to Australia).
#14875172
Things I've learned from this thread:

- There is a "war on Christmas"
- Israel is "near the equator".

Stay tuned for more Alternative Facts that the Fake News Media won't tell you! :lol:
#14875175
colliric wrote:Hey Hindsite.

I was wondering your opinion on the evidence Jesus was born on December 25.

Surely you must as a Christian realise the evidence he was possibly born on that day is in fact there.

Protestants hellbent on opposing December 25th fail to realise the story of the Magi gives compelling support to the date given we in fact can basically use computers to emulate exactly what was happening in the night sky in Israel on December 25th 2BC(they got the year wrong by 1) or any other date for that matter.

Anyone looking out from Jerusalem saw Jupiter, the King Wandering Star(that's what Planet means), hovering brighter than usual above Bethlehem after having made motions which indicated the birth of a Jewish King to the ancient astrological Magi.

It gives more support to December 25th than the section which states the animals were outside gives to opposing the date(because Israel is near the equator and it's winters are warm winters similar to Australia).

December 25 disagrees with scripture, so that date is ruled out. Also 2 B.C. is ruled out because we know that King Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. There are some astronomy accounts that point to dates from 7 to 5 B. C. that could be correct. I came across the following opinion on the subject that you might find interesting:

Even if we grant that the "wise men" were astrologers, the Bible does not indicate that astrology enabled them to locate Jesus, and it certainly was not astrology that prompted them to go home without notifying the wicked Herod of the location of the child who was born King of the Jews.

The star which the wise men saw was no ordinary star. It guided them in the direction of Jerusalem and, then seems to have disappeared. When they left Jerusalem for Bethlehem, "lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy" (Matt. 2:9,10). This could not have been a star in the sense of a natural luminous body, for such a star would not move before men then stand over a given house so as to clearly distinguish it from other houses in the same village. McGarvey stresses this point: "A child, looking at a star near the horizon, may imagine that it hangs over a certain house; but when it walks up to that house it finds that the star is as far off as before and is hanging over another house. The star of the magi stood over the house where the child was until they came up and entered the house, thus preventing them from entering the wrong house and finding the wrong child." Everything in the text points to a miraculous star-a supernatural light designed to guide the wise men to the supernaturally-born Jesus.

"Evidently we have here another of the many Bible miracles which modern science is unable to explain. Undoubtedly this miraculous appearance, which is called a star, aroused the curiosity of the wise men to such an extent that they followed it for many miles until finally it pointed out the exact place where they wished to go"


(Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, p. 81).
#14875180
But that's only if one slavishly interprets the verse with the Animals outside and does not consider that Israel is a warmer country. It is mainly predicated on that verse. You can elaborate if you wish to, I will read it.

Herod dying in 4BC has been strongly disputed recently. The Wikipedia page reflects this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great

It lists 4BCE(4BC) and 1CE(1AD) as two possible death dates, with alot of scholars now supporting the traditional date again instead of the 4BCE date. So that is in fact not known. We thought it was for a while clear, but newer archeological developments, such as the discovery of his possible tomb threw it back into doubt.

And of cause it wasn't an ordinary star, it was an extraordinary miraculous event. Even if we figure out it was Jupiter(the King star in most ancient beliefs), the planet had appeared to perform extraordinary movements and actions anyway, like appear to hover over Bethlehem and looked miraculously much brighter than normal. The Planets were given the name Planet because it means a "Star that wanders" which is a description which also obviously applied to the Star Of Bethlehem. It literally wandered around the night sky giving the "sign a king was to be born in Israel" then appeared to stay still and "rest" over Bethlehem with it's light appearing in the sky above the stable. The Magi traveled directly from Jerusalem so the point that if they had of "gone off centre the star would be off course" is irrelevant given they probably traveled as straight as possible for the "star" and found the stable directly in that direction which still means Scripture makes sense in saying the Star pointed out where they needed to go and was shining on it. They were traveling directly from Jerusalem and when they got to Bethlehem and walked up to the stable(directly under) they would have known that's where they needed to stop as soon as they saw a newborn child in a stable under the star. It is erranous to assume they did not know Bethlehem was where the Messiah was to be born given it was mentioned in their presence in Herod's chamber(and it can be assumed they knew the Jewish beliefs a bit), and therefore knew not to leave the small city once they got there.

The Magi were astrologically minded(Magi traditionally followed the Religion of Zoroastrianism, which placed naturally heavy emphasis on Astrology, although the Bible does not explicitly mention they were Magi of this type the name does imply they were), they didn't just see the star like everyone else. The Bible explicitly states they were in fact the only ones to see it, Herod didn't even notice it, no one in Jerusalem had apparently noticed it. That's why Herod interrogates them to see when they saw the star. They saw a miraculous sign in the sky that no one else saw and that no one else appeared capable of seeing or willing to see. Which supports the contention that the sky appeared normal to most observers prior to the Magi arriving in Jerusalem, but these individuals were able to read something miraculous happening that others just didn't see. Which supports the contention they were masterful Astrologers, able to read the stars properly(not selfishly sinfully like most modern astrologers do) as God had intended to happen when he created the stars..

Genesis point out God made the stars to help us read the signs and know the seasons. I'm sure you know that verse already.
Last edited by colliric on 29 Dec 2017 15:47, edited 1 time in total.
#14875196
Hindsite wrote:I don't recall saying that.


No, the Trump of God can not be the anti-Christ.


You did not have to say "holier" it was implied when you said he put the "Christ" into Christmas.

The Bible says that God was good and kind. He cared about his people. He provided them with minds and bodies so that they could fend for themselves. He urged them to love their enemies and not hate anyone. Trump has a lot of hate as evidenced from his fights with foreign leaders and his disparaging comments against any opposition to him or his policies. Trump wants us to hate on people who "take a knee" or hate other people such as Obama or Hilary. He is also not kind to others. His policies are helping the rich and most people are not rich. Trump has said and done so many things that are against the public such as hiring a guy to head the EPA who doesn't even care about clean air or pollution, he would rather tear down the EPA brick by brick or by backing Roy Moore despite the very vocal opposition to his election. A good leader listens to the people and Trump does not know how to listen.

As to caring for anyone, Trump was even a standoffish father. He rarely spent time with his kids until they were older and could help him make money.

God said not to worship idols. If anyone worships golden idols it is Trump. The guy loves money. His bedroom looks like a scene out of Versailles. God would not have such a bedroom. God does not care for luxury and for being rich. What matters is the goodness of one's soul. Trump is not a good person at all. All that comes out of him is rotten and toxic.
#14875197
@MistyTiger there's a critical difference between Versailles and Trump's gold-plated penthouse. Versailles is opulent and extravagant, but tasteful, beautiful, and fabulous. Trump on the other hand is gaudy. I've seen Versailles for myself and it's magnificient. In contrast we have a guy who has a pathetic need to put gold plating on anything in sight and enormous TRUMP banners on everything.

Versailles on one hand, and a guy with a smaller-than-average penis but billions of dollars to spend with no tact or taste or culture or class.
#14875199
@Bulaba Jones Then we'll just say that Trump is trying to copy the French but failing and God copies no one's use of gold.

Trump loves Wallstreet but God would hate it since it is a form of gambling. And some businessmen would sell their soul to get rich. Maybe Trump sold his soul long ago.
#14875201
I don't see any sign he's trying to copy anything French. His sense of style is pure gaudy: he thinks putting gold on everything, and having his name on everything else in huge capital letters is impressive. Sad!
#14875373
Jesus was born in the Spring but Christians celebrated his birth on the winter solstice to avoid being persecuted by pagans. Shepherds don't watch their flocks by night in the middle of winter.
#14875374
My wife and I only attend Church 1 or 2 times a year now at our age. Attending church is not the only measure of a devotee to the faith.


Protestants. :lol:
#14875379
Hindsite wrote:No, the Trump of God can not be the anti-Christ.


You might want to check out the first commandment before declaring Trump a God...

Nonetheless, come on Hindsite. If we use the 'scripture text' from that 'great book' and deem it as absolute fact, Trump is smoking into ash in external life.

He isn't fitting in no 'eye of a needle', is most definitely 'Judging', nor is he 'helping thy neighbour' out with his fantasticly pro-rich tax reforms. He is the opposite to Christ. So he is "Anti-Christ".
#14875380
AFAIK wrote:Jesus was born in the Spring but Christians celebrated his birth on the winter solstice to avoid being persecuted by pagans. Shepherds don't watch their flocks by night in the middle of winter.


Israel's winters, and Winter Nights, are similar to Australian winters, as in they barely reach lower than 5°.... As in they are warm winters will little to no Snow except on mountaintops..... As in on the warmer winter nights the animals very well could have been left outside at night, especially in the first century with it's natural lack of modern technology making the job more difficult to do.

It's a flimsy argument that you can easily drive a bus through by going to any climate website and looking at Israel's average winter temperature which is very close to ours here in Melbourne where we get Zero Snow, plenty of sunlight, few thunderstorms, lower rain levels than other countries and nights where you can easily let your pet cats and dogs stay and sleep outside(but cats have to be secured because they kill birds at night)....

Stop basing your argument on your country's own winter experience, and consider that countries closer to the equator get a different and far warmer experience than you do, resulting in different winter customs.
#14875383
MistyTiger wrote:@Bulaba Jones Then we'll just say that Trump is trying to copy the French but failing and God copies no one's use of gold.

Trump loves Wallstreet but God would hate it since it is a form of gambling. And some businessmen would sell their soul to get rich. Maybe Trump sold his soul long ago.


God doesnt hate business... And doesn't hate smart moral business investment. He hates sin.

Jesus actually gave investment advice in his parables(both as religious metaphor and so that it would actually be followed for personal well-being) and even layed out a basic form of Christian tax policy....

If Queen Elizabeth II is pictured on your money, she has the right to ask for it back from you in the form of taxation as she is the owner who wrote her name on her property. Give it to her, or her representative. Jesus policy on Taxation.
#14875384
Why does an all-forgiving and merciful god care about sin? If he's all-forgiving, sin is irrelevant. He created a flawed and imperfect being and then is mad at them for their flaws. DUMB!

Religion fail!
#14875567
MistyTiger wrote:Trump has a lot of hate as evidenced from his fights with foreign leaders and his disparaging comments against any opposition to him or his policies.

That is your opinion. My opinion is that Trump loves his people and wants to put them first. America first is one of his slogans.

MistyTiger wrote:As to caring for anyone, Trump was even a standoffish father. He rarely spent time with his kids until they were older and could help him make money.

This is not true as his own children have testifies of playing in his office.

MistyTiger wrote:Trump is not a good person at all. All that comes out of him is rotten and toxic.

Jesus said there was no one good, but God.
#14875570
colliric wrote:If Queen Elizabeth II is pictured on your money, she has the right to ask for it back from you in the form of taxation as she is the owner who wrote her name on her property. Give it to her, or her representative. Jesus policy on Taxation.


Money is an IOU from the BoE and is no more the Queens than the Moon. If an image was a claim for property, then Hamill, Ford and Fisher have much to claim from Lucas.

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