Is India in breach of Vienna convention over Italian envoy? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14195693
Andrew North, BBC wrote:Is India in breach of Vienna convention over Italian envoy?

"Habemus argumentum." It is not just because of the new Pope that Rome is making news in India today.

A spiralling row has broken out between Delhi and Rome, taking diplomatic rules into uncharted waters and possibly even risking Indian relations with the rest of the European Union.

Accusing Italy of "unacceptable" behaviour, India has taken the unusual step of barring its ambassador to Delhi from leaving, after Rome changed its mind on returning two Italian marines charged with murdering two fishermen off the Indian coast last year.

The Indian foreign ministry has also called in the EU envoy to Delhi.

Diplomatic expulsions are commonplace when relations break down between states. Not so diplomatic detentions - which conjure memories of hostage crises.

No-one is going that far yet. But others watching the row says India's action leaves it open to the charge of breaching the Vienna convention which governs global diplomatic ties - potentially creating a dangerous precedent for its own envoys.

The Vienna text states that diplomats "shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention".

According to one foreign embassy official in Delhi: "It is for diplomats themselves or their country to invoke or revoke their diplomatic protection, not the host country."

[More ...]


The article isn't able to provide a definitive answer to its own question, but how it concludes is interesting:

Andrew North, BBC wrote:"What is going to happen if the Italian ambassador now tries to fly out of Indira Gandhi International (Delhi's main) airport?" asks one Western diplomat. "Are they going to stop him? And what happens then?"

The row could affect ongoing negotiations between India and the EU over a free-trade agreement.

Italy is already briefing fellow EU governments in Brussels about the case, clearly keen to press its side of the story.

But warns Mr Sibal: "If Italy cares about its long-term interests here, it will discover this was a huge error."


Political pressure in democratic states makes it much harder for there to be a trade-off in terms of justice and international trade. Opposition MPs can easily unite a population against 'Johnny foreigner' to hurt the government if it doesn't take the domestic moralist position of trial for the accused before good relations.

The question that leaves me with is to what extent should states demand their own way on 'small issues' like this at the expense of trade? On aggregate could it for example be possible that India will end up worse off in terms of people dyeing from poverty related aliments than the 'price' of these murders? Similarly, should Italy put the benefit to itself of trade before the principle of correct jurisdiction? They don't seem to be saying that they shouldn't stand trial at all. In allowing wider relations to worsen are they both right, both wrong or one right?
#14195799
India has ever right to do this. It wants to see those two marines in an Indian court room and it should do everything in power the ensure that this happens. Anything else would be betraying their people.


And by your logic the Italian government should ensure that it's citizens don't face trial.

How much importance should we put on International law, and abstract justice? In my view almost none, the Italian government should reach a compromise with the Indian government, not because it is just but because it offers a way to restore good relations.

On a side note, could the BJP use this to discredit the Congress party due to Sonia Ghandi's ethnicity?
#14195819
And by your logic the Italian government should ensure that it's citizens don't face trial.


Indeed and as that's exactly what it is doing it looks like they are using the same logic.

How much importance should we put on International law,


There is no such thing. It's just a tool that tongs countries use to fuck over weaker countries. Anyone powerful doesn't have to follow it (look at the yanks with drones).

and abstract justice?


One mans justice is anther's injustice. I'm sure you have noticed that there is no one accepted moral code in the world.

In my view almost none, the Italian government should reach a compromise with the Indian government, not because it is just but because it offers a way to restore good relations.


By good relations you mean the international bourgeoisie and their puppet governments getting on well together again (facilitating the making of lots of lively profit) while the interests of the people (especially the people unfortunate enough to run into Italian marines) are ignored.

On a side note, could the BJP use this to discredit the Congress party due to Sonia Ghandi's ethnicity?


No idea.
#14195893
By good relations you mean the international bourgeoisie and their puppet governments getting on well together again (facilitating the making of lots of lively profit) while the interests of the people (especially the people unfortunate enough to run into Italian marines) are ignored.


No thats not what I mean, quite the opposite, part of the strength of international capital is the facilitation of perceived national conflict, the ruling classes in india are quite keen on whipping up nationalist sentiment in this situation.

The interests of the Indian people would be better served by seing through this distraction.
#14195904
The interests of the Indian people would be better served by seing through this distraction.


I see so the interests of the Indian people would be best served by letting the Italian military walk all over them.

Maybe they should not have left the British empire if that's the kind of thing that serves their people's interests.
#14195913
I heard this story a few a days ago via another source and I'm glad to see it being discussed here.

How can India be deemed in the wrong in this situation when two Italian marines murdered an Indian civilian - that is, the civilian of a supposedly friendly or nominally "partner" country not in wartime - for seemingly no reason outside of Kerala, and the Italian government then actively attempts to harbor the murderers who are fugitives from the justice sought by the Indian legal system?

Are the lives of these two marines more important for Rome than its trade relations with India? That is the question which should be considered here. It would be absolutely disgraceful and degrading for Indians to allow any other nation to pull this type of shit, no matter the short-term repercussions.

Yes, a statement of dignity which the Indian people can internalize and foreign states will take note of is worth more than any financial advantage.
#14198718
Breaking news, the Italian Marines are being sent back to India to have the trial conducted there.

BBC News, 'Italy-Indian row: Marines travel to India for trial', 22 Mar 2013 wrote:
Image
Massimiliano Latorre (R) and Salvatore Girone had returned to Italy before Christmas
Two Italian marines accused of killing two Indian fishermen are on their way back to Delhi for trial, Indian officials say, as diplomatic tensions ease.

India had allowed them to travel to Italy to vote in last month's election.

When they failed to return, India's Supreme Court ruled Italy's ambassador was barred from leaving the country.

The Italian government said it had received assurances about the men's treatment and their human rights.

"They are on their way back to Delhi," Indian foreign ministry spokesman Syed Akbaruddin told the Agence France-Presse news agency.

The news of their return has eased diplomatic tensions between Italy and India.

"Diplomacy continues to work when everyone else thinks that everything is lost," India's Foreign Minister Salman Khurshid said.

The marines, Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone, are accused of shooting the fishermen off the Kerala coast in February 2012. The marines had been guarding an Italian oil tanker and said they mistook the fishermen for pirates.

The marines, who had been out on bail awaiting trial, were allowed to fly back to Italy for the February 2013 general election on condition that they returned to stand trial by 22 March.

Italian ambassador Daniele Mancini gave his personal assurance that they would return within four weeks.

But then Rome decided that they would not fly back to Delhi, arguing that India was violating international law by putting them on trial, as the shooting had taken place in international waters.

Rome proposed putting them on trial in Italy.

The day before the men's licence was due to expire, the office of Prime Minister Mario Monti issued a statement saying that the marines had agreed to return, during a meeting with Mr Monti and other ministers.

'Responsibility'

The BBC's Bethany Bell in Rome said the decision was a turnaround by the Italian government.

It had received "ample assurances" from Delhi, the statement from Mr Monti's office said.

"The marines agreed to this decision," the statement said, adding that it was also in the men's interest.

President Giorgio Napolitano said he appreciated their "sense of responsibility" and said Italy would remain by their side.

The Italian foreign ministry's decision 10 days ago not to return the two men had prompted a bitter diplomatic row, with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh warning of "consequences" if it was not reversed.

Then the Delhi Supreme Court ordered Rome's envoy not to leave the country and airports across India were put on alert to stop him flying out.

Italy said restricting its ambassador's movements violated diplomatic conventions.

This whole incident seems to have been an accident from the very start. To me it seems a little weak on the part of Italy, that they handed them over this easily, it's like India really did outmanoeuvre them on this.
#14198835
The Indians played it well.
Italy could not afford to have damaged relations with India, a country of over a billion people.
I am sure they made some under the table deals... no death penalty, the prisoners will be allowed to do their time in Italy, where they will be released quietly after the brouhaha dies down. Thet's how it is usually done.
The soldiers will get some promotions, early pensions, and everybody will be happy forever after (and nobody loses face)
#14199063
The marines and their political masters are not fascists.


I've never been to Italy, all I have to go on are the stories my grandad bought back and they mainly involve (in his own words) "finding death camps for gypsies and spastics and their sort" (apparently it was a bit grim) and how good the food was in Trieste.

They certainly sound like fascists.
#14199244
You're an intelligent person Decky,


I beg to differ, if I was intelligent I would have done business studies and became a land baron or a drug dealer or banker or another one of those types of job and be rolling in money drinking nothing but expensive cider and be balls deep in a different gold digger every day of the week. I'm a total moron.

As it is I have to carefully budget if I want to by a hardback book for fucks sake.

you know the Italians are not fascists now, so to call them such is a little silly.


Meh, the look like it to me. The stain of guilt will always be with the axis countries until the end of time. We are talking about the people who continue to elect Berlusconi time and time again.

Oh and:
A small Italian town has built a mausoleum and a memorial park honouring a ruthless fascist commander serving under Benito Mussolini and later convicted of war crimes.

Field marshal Rodolfo Graziani, the notorious military commander in colonial wars in Ethiopia and Libya where he carried out massacres and used chemical weapons, was honoured with the memorial in Affile, a small town near Rome. The decisions were taken even though the Italian constitution prohibits the glorification of fascist veterans.

Ercole Viri, mayor of the village of Affile, attended the opening ceremony last week, together with a representative from the Vatican. Images of the opening ceremony were posted in a gallery on the village's website, which lists Graziani as one of its "famous sons".

Corriere Della Sera reported the €127,000-mausoleum was taken from a regional funding programme intended to finance school building, street maintenance and lighting, sidewalks and parking areas.

The Italian left condemned the glorification of the Mussolini commander. In an open letter, Esterino Montino, head of the centre-left Democratic Party for the region of Lazio, asked the Rome Prefect and the judiciary to investigate possible glorification of fascism and diversion of public funds.

Libyan authorities also criticized the glorification of Graziani, who was responsible for the deportation of hundreds of thousands of nomadic tribes in Cyrenaica, many of whom perished in concentration camps in the desert. Italian companies willing to participate in the reconstruction of Libya are likely to be punished for the decision of the authorities in Affile, the Swiss website Le Courrier writes.

EurActiv asked the European Commission to verify if EU funds have been used for building the mausoleum, and to specify if it intended to take action in what appears to be a case of fascist glorification. The EU executive promised to respond to the request.


Axis is axis is axis, never forgive, never forget.
#14199262
one of those types of job and be rolling in money drinking nothing but expensive cider and be balls deep in a different gold digger every day of the week.


It's not that fun believe me

The stain of guilt will always be with the axis countries until the end of time.


What about our guilt for the crimes of the British Empire (that far outweigh axis guilt)
#14199288
What about our guilt for the crimes of the British Empire (that far outweigh axis guilt)


What guilt? Yours maybe but it has nothing to do with me. I'll have you know my family knew de Valera and we had people fighting whenever British forces got near the farm (most didn't fight full time as the women made it clear the men had to be back at the farm by morning as there was work to be done ).

Remember Cork is not Cardiff. People actually gave a shit about independence there. It wasn't all "oh well we will join the British army but talk about independence a lot" like Wales or Dublin. It isn't called the rebel county for nothing.
#14199790
Knowing the Italians, the two marines in question were just late...


I am glad to see the Italian government is fulfilling its responsibilities to continue its partnership and trade relations with some dignity. New Delhi's little show of defiance was admirable and really, necessary if Indians are to be taken seriously as a major regional, and later continental and perhaps global power. Giving in and bending over as so many whipped nations with seemingly collective PTSD are so keen to do nowadays would have been an invitation for other countries who maintain close relations with India, particularly other European powers, the U.S., and their counterparts in China - to abuse the relationship as needed with no fear of consequences or reprisals, even when those consequences are simply an ugly episode in diplomacy.

See, if the Indians had kept their mouths shut and sucked it up, I am fairly certain the marines would not have returned, world press would have heard little of the incident, and Italy would have scored a minor silent coup by protecting two of their citizens charged with a crime and yet not receiving much international push-back or negative attention for essentially spitting in the face of a nominally friendly country (nevermind being one the EU and the U.S. hope to court and use against China) and being openly untrustworthy (all countries are untrustworthy, but it is considered poor form to be so blatant about it).

Another day, another lesson in the school of "Recognizing and Respecting International Laws Which are Written by Others and Designed to Disempower Your People Doesn't Work"

Decky, if the two brigands in question - Latorre and Girone - were actually fascists, you know I would be the first here defending them.

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