[xizhimen]

China is Hong Kong’s future – not its enemy
Protesters cry democracy but most are driven by dislocation and resentment at mainlanders’ success

The Guardian, Tuesday 30 September 2014 19.45

The upheaval sweeping Hong Kong is more complicated than on the surface it might appear. Protests have erupted over direct elections to be held in three years’ time; democracy activists claim that China’s plans will allow it to screen out the candidates it doesn’t want.

It should be remembered, however, that for 155 years until its handover to China in 1997, Hong Kong was a British colony, forcibly taken from China at the end of the first opium war. All its 28 subsequent governors were appointed by the British government. Although Hong Kong came, over time, to enjoy the rule of law and the right to protest, under the British it never enjoyed even a semblance of democracy. It was ruled from 6,000 miles away in London. The idea of any kind of democracy was first introduced by the Chinese government. In 1990 the latter adopted the Basic Law, which included the commitment that in 2017 the territory’s chief executive would be elected by universal suffrage; it also spelt out that the nomination of candidates would be a matter for a nominating committee.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/30/china-hong-kong-future-protesters-cry-democracy

[Mehmet]

China is no Ukraine. They even failed in Turkey; the PLA would massacre these West-oriented bourgeois.

[Paul Sanderson]

China is Hong Kong’s future – not its enemy
Protesters cry democracy but most are driven by dislocation and resentment at mainlanders’ success

I don't know if you're saying you think Hong Kongers are jealous of the mainlanders but I doubt it's that. The "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" argument is the one I'd go for. It looks like China is granting the Hong Kongers more autonomy and the mainlanders more rights as time goes by and there are a few examples in history that would show that this is the point when people decide they're going to rise up- when they believe things are going to change anyway. They want this change to happen faster. If they expect nothing is going to change and if this has been the way it has always been, they might not even bother saying anything, let alone do anything. But when the authority loosens its grip and doesn't look so domineering anymore, the population knows this is when its time to strike.

[Rejn]

Paul, the protests are a response to the authorities tightening their grip. The changes were to have the Chief Executive of Hong Kong appointed by the Central Government.

[Terrik]

The article makes some valid points, but the main idea is ridiculous. What's happening now is exactly what many predicted would happen after Hong Kong was handed back to Beijing. I lived in CHina for a long time, and I really liked it, but I wouldn't wish their system of governance on anybody.

[Paul Sanderson]

Paul, the protests are a response to the authorities tightening their grip. The changes were to have the Chief Executive of Hong Kong appointed by the Central Government.

Thanks for the heads up Rejn. After having read a couple more news articles, I can’t see anything that says China would have given them the right to choose their candidates anyway? China did agree to an actual election in 2017, but it looks as though the right to nominate their own candidates was never part of the deal. I read that there was an "unofficial referendum" over this but, that’s not the same as the government saying the Hong Kongers could nominate their own candidates, and then saying “actually, no you can’t”. You might be able to post something though that would give me a bit more info on the background though.

[Atlantis]

The idea of any kind of democracy was first introduced by the Chinese government.

The Guardian should now better. After neglecting democratic institutions in the crown colony for more than a century, the British tried to install a quasi-democracy on the quick in the couple of years when Patten negotiated the hand-over of 95.

Let's face it, the Chinese people aren't going to fight for democracy, neither in PRC, HK, Singapore or elsewhere, as long the government allows people to grow wealthy.

I have always thought that Hong Kong will suffer as a result of PRC modernization. Hong Kong got rich as a hub for doing business in China while the country was still largely closed. Now, a businessman can go directly to Shenzhen, Shanghai or elsewhere in the PRC without a Hong Kong middleman.

[Powerup]

These Hong Kongers are dumb as fuck. When were they ever promised totally democracy? The British never allowed them to elect their ruler and the PRC's promise is kept exactly as it is. How could Beijing ever allow an anti-government leader to be elected? Of course its leader needs to be approved by the central government. Better pre-select than reject an elected one. This protest is based on totally false information and agitation and nothing more.

[park]

CIA is certainly already there, this is America's chance to stop China's rise which seemed unstoppable.

[JRS1]

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1607579/anonymous-hacker-group-declares-cyber-war-hong-kong

Could be interesting...

[redcarpet]

I hope the demonstrators persist. They need to stand up for themselves and not break

[Rejn]

Thanks for the heads up Rejn. After having read a couple more news articles, I can’t see anything that says China would have given them the right to choose their candidates anyway? China did agree to an actual election in 2017, but it looks as though the right to nominate their own candidates was never part of the deal.

Hong Kong has held elections before without the central government directly interfering. What people in Hong Kong are concerned about is the gradual erosion of the one country, two systems policy. Is Hong Kong a Special Administrative Region or is it not?

I read that there was an "unofficial referendum" over this but, that’s not the same as the government saying the Hong Kongers could nominate their own candidates, and then saying “actually, no you can’t”. You might be able to post something though that would give me a bit more info on the background though.

Just because the central government hasn't said they can select their own candidates, doesn't mean that they don't have that right. The Australian government doesn't remind me that I can run as a candidate in our elections but I know I have that right. People in Hong Kong were expecting elections to continue without direct interference from the CCP, and then this came up. So it is actually like the central government saying "no, you cant".

[benpenguin]

xizhimen: Good that you bought this up, I am a Hong Konger currently living within China, being on both sides of the fence I have much thoughts to share. I don't want to retype everything, but regarding my position you can read this thread, especially the last few late replies I made.

Hong Kong resorts to tear gas to break up protestors: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=158733

A few points:
1. This protests has been a result of accumulating dissatisfaction of the previous few administrations. Housing prices are rising beyond the reach of even middle class citizens, young people cannot find any opportunities to advance themselves, the HK government serves Chinese business interests more than it serves Hong Kong citizens. UNRESTRICTED Chinese tourism (Even the central govt questioned whether HK can take so many tourists when it was proposed, but the HK govt insists) So on and so forth...
2. As with any political movement, deteriorating social and civil conditions has provided the grounds for the protests. Sinophobia, influence of CIA and NED funded hecks like Jimmy Lai, they all play a part. But the central government will do well not to ignore the real reasons behind the protests.
3. Personally, I am not much of a liberal and I don't believe democracy will solve all problems, but it is clear as daylight that the Beijing selected Chief executives aren't doing what they are meant to do, nor has the political acumen for it, there are also corruption of unseen levels before 1997. Thus, HKers want to elect their own. On Beijing's side, they are actually okay with that, as long as anti-china / CIA hicks won't get the post. The problem is, there is no safeguard for that they can think of.
4. There has been a few dickheads calling for HK independence, expulsion of all mainlanders and singing the locust song, but they are FAR from majority. Most HKers despise them, myself included. I can't speak for everybody, but saying that we oppose China because we are "jealous of Chinese success" is a very insulting, not to mention very narrow interpretation of HK's events. Sadly, this is what was being preached by the Chinese media, and most Chinese bought it.

[Powerup]

Just because the central government hasn't said they can select their own candidates, doesn't mean that they don't have that right. The Australian government doesn't remind me that I can run as a candidate in our elections but I know I have that right.

Are you saying that there is nowhere in Australian law that says you have the right to run as a candidate?

[Rejn]

Are you saying that there is nowhere in Australian law that says you have the right to run as a candidate?

I'm saying that the government doesn't make announcements about it before every election.

[Powerup]

I'm saying that the government doesn't make announcements about it before every election.

And what's the point of saying that at all? Nowhere in Hong Kong's basic law says they have the right to elect whoever they want. And that means they don't have the right.

[Rejn]

The fact that they've held elections before without CCP approving the nominees means that they have that right.

[Powerup]

There is no such fact LMAO.

[Rejn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_ ... tion,_2002

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_ ... tion,_2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_ ... tion,_2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_ ... tion,_2012

[benpenguin]

Rejn, the previous Chief Executives are being elected by a election committee which are themselves chosen by Beijing + special interest groups within HK, the public is not involved. The left had fought for universal suffrage for years, and finally Beijing agreed to a timetable to give hk the right for elections in 2017.

However, it turns out that Beijing's idea of public election means electing from pre-screened candidates chosen by the existing election committee, whose now name has been changed to "nomination committee". They know that this proposal will not be accepted by the public, so when they announced this "devilish detail", it is already the final decision.

As you would have imagined, people are pretty pissed with the outcome.