China Geopolitics - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues in the People's Republic of China.

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By Istanbuller
#14511732
spodi wrote:They have great PR too with "Asia for Asians"

I knew those Asians were retarded. We have the same type idiots here who repeat similar nonsenses and nobody eat this shit anymore here. But it seems that there are lots of idiots in Asia eat these nationalistic bullshit.
By Atlantis
#14511733
benpenguin wrote: all heard stories about the Chinese caring so much about face, and we need that "guanxi", and we have this ancient delicate culture that involves a lot of patronage and kow-tow...so we over-complicate things.

I think we are talking at cross purpose. You were bashing the West over xenophobia and claimed that it was detrimental to relations with China. I said, 1) nobody beats the Chinese when it comes to xenophobia and 2) liberal Western politicians are driven by commercial interests not by xenophobia.

Your complaint recalls a constant Chinese complaint about being "misunderstood" by the West. That is forgetting that if things Chinese were better known in the West, China might come in for a lot more criticism than is the case now. In other words, China enjoys a favorable prejudice exactly because of the ignorance and because sinologues are for the most part sinophiles.

Regarding the need to adapt to Chinese customs, no matter what your personal experience, that is certainly a paramount requirement for succeeding in China. That may not necessarily have to include traditional features about "face" and the like (China too evolves), but nobody who does not adapt to local practices will be able to succeed.

As soon as the whites adapt to the multipolar century, the sooner you will re-earn respect, and take your rightful place among the world powers as equals. And that, would be a high point in human history!

Here we go again, all the evils of this World are due to the West? And we'll be advancing towards a golden age under the hegemony of China. I'll always oppose Western imperialism/colonialism, but if there has to be a hegemon, I prefer this to be an Anglo hegemon rather than a French, Chinese, German, Japanese or Spanish hegemon.

Rei Murasame wrote:But at those times we have to remember of course that 'their corners are being rubbed off' and that over time the trade system itself will show them that it's more productive to collaborate for shared regional goals, than to pick fights with each other.

That's a nice theory. I only wonder why it never worked on Japanese politicians in all these years. They are like Lemmings driven to go over the cliff (or like the elderly who can't stay away from those Mochi rice cakes even though they know it will kill them) when they come out with the most racist or sexist remarks the moment they have been voted into some office. Failing that, they will go running off to Yasukuni Jinja to busily rub salt into the old wounds. Mustn't let those heal, that would be dreadful.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#14511741
Atlantis wrote:Here we go again, all the evils of this World are due to the West?

No one cares. Even if East Asia was populated entirely by sadists, we support our own side because it is ours and we like having power.

Atlantis wrote:That's a nice theory. I only wonder why it never worked on Japanese politicians in all these years.

Neofunctionalism did work on Japanese politicians, it's just that you didn't notice because you kept watching the rhetoric and didn't pay attention to the economics. Furthermore, Japan is the foremost advocate of neofunctionalism in East Asia, whereas China favours a more governmental approach. In the end, there will be more like a mix between the two approaches.

To say that neofunctionalism didn't work on Japanese politicians, despite the fact that they are the ones who somehow ended up advocating it, is really remarkable. How did they get converted over to it if it didn't have an impact on them?
By benpenguin
#14511748
After all those nice things I said, is this really how you interpret it? You just added a very hostile tone to my whole paragraph, which I didn't mean at all!

Atlantis wrote:I think we are talking at cross purpose. You were bashing the West over xenophobia and claimed that it was detrimental to relations with China. I said, 1) nobody beats the Chinese when it comes to xenophobia and 2) liberal Western politicians are driven by commercial interests not by xenophobia.

Alright, I will use a different term - "overreaction". I am not trying to say you hate us because white people are racist idiots, I am saying that people are naturally fearful to a foreign culture coming to their country, white or not. Remember that we are discussing about the chances that China will dominate you? That's what I was trying to discuss. There is noting to fear from your end. That's the only point I was trying to make.

Your complaint recalls a constant Chinese complaint about being "misunderstood" by the West. That is forgetting that if things Chinese were better known in the West, China might come in for a lot more criticism than is the case now. In other words, China enjoys a favorable prejudice exactly because of the ignorance and because sinologues are for the most part sinophiles.

But we are actually being misunderstood! I lived in both worlds for an extended period of time, so I do have some perspective. For me, it is very hard to explain Western mindset to my compatriots, and vise versa. We live in a completely different world with a very irrelevant set of values to each other, and we couldn't even begin to acknowledge it.
Just look at your Western news anchors. BBC, CNN, Reuters, NYT...pick one. Search all articles about China for the last 15 years. There is simply nothing worth praising about China. We are just a bunch lowlife peasants living in a shithole, knowing only how to copy from the west, while being ruled by cartoon villians waiting to be overthrown. If you call this "better understanding" I cringe at the thought of you guys understanding us even better.

Regarding the need to adapt to Chinese customs, no matter what your personal experience, that is certainly a paramount requirement for succeeding in China. That may not necessarily have to include traditional features about "face" and the like (China too evolves), but nobody who does not adapt to local practices will be able to succeed.

The only point I was trying to make is: don't be too hard on your liberal politicians. They are just adapting.

Here we go again, all the evils of this World are due to the West? And we'll be advancing towards a golden age under the hegemony of China. I'll always oppose Western imperialism/colonialism, but if there has to be a hegemon, I prefer this to be an Anglo hegemon rather than a French, Chinese, German, Japanese or Spanish hegemon.

Why must there be a world hedgemony? I have repeated a million times, China will not dominate, at least not like the US. We won't and we can't even if we wanted to. Being a global hedgemony is unsustainable, and I think having a multipolar world is a wonderful thing. I am saying that the West can and will remain one of the power player, but not the only one. And where the fuck in my paragraph did I said "the West is evil"? I am merely comparing my vision to the current situation, where US and by extension "the west", together with their liberal values, dominate everything. I am saying that this is inefficient and unfair, and I look forward to the future. That is all!
Last edited by benpenguin on 16 Jan 2015 12:48, edited 1 time in total.
By benpenguin
#14511752
Istanbuller wrote:I knew those Asians were retarded. We have the same type idiots here who repeat similar nonsenses and nobody eat this shit anymore here. But it seems that there are lots of idiots in Asia eat these nationalistic bullshit.

My god Istanbuller you are such a pain in the ass. Are you till upset about us kicking Turkish ass since 600AD? I tried asking but none of my Chinese friends even know why the Turks hate us, until I looked through the web and realized that the most great and magnificant Turkish people are among the savage tribes that we constantly whipped when bored. I'm sorry but it's really hard to find the relevant background because our historians never really put much stock into researching minor barbarian tribes. There are just far more important things, for example the plumbing systems that we used to maintain in major cities.
But don't be jealous! If Turkey stop exporting terrorism and start exporting real stuff, you can perhaps catch up with Guangzhou's GDP in a decade or two!
By Atlantis
#14511878
benpenguin wrote:After all those nice things I said, ...

Calm down, this is nothing personal, you have your views/experiences, I have mine, unless we can talk openly, what's the point? Incidentally, I did live in the Far East for quite some time, so I'm not the greenhorn you may take me to be.

Remember that we are discussing about the chances that China will dominate you? That's what I was trying to discuss. There is noting to fear from your end. That's the only point I was trying to make.

And who are you to make such a claim? Do you represent 1.3 billion Chinese? Nobody could make such a claim. History develops its own dynamics. Nobody can stop that. A dominant economic position will invariably translate into a dominant political position. Nobody can change that. China is set to replace the US as the first economic superpower soon. Short of an all out war, nothing can stop that. So all your assurances that China will not dominate are not worth a thing.

My point is that the West has to clearly face this fact and act accordingly, not by suppressing China by political or military pressure, but by adopting an industrial policy that will make sure we can compete economically with China in the future. Europe has been loosing technological leadership and industries to the Far East for too long.

But we are actually being misunderstood! I lived in both worlds for an extended period of time, so I do have some perspective. For me, it is very hard to explain Western mindset to my compatriots, and vise versa. We live in a completely different world with a very irrelevant set of values to each other, and we couldn't even begin to acknowledge it.
Just look at your Western news anchors. BBC, CNN, Reuters, NYT...pick one. Search all articles about China for the last 15 years. There is simply nothing worth praising about China.

Oh stop complaining! That isn't going anywhere. I have monitored Anglo media for nearly 50 years, and I can tell you that the BBC has for decades depicted a totally distorted image of Germany, for example. You just don't notice it because you are Chinese, so you are very sensitive about any news about China, while probably taking the BBC news, for example, about Germany at face value.

And as I said, the little known about the Far East is known through the biased views of people studying Chinese, Japanese, etc., who invariably have a soft spot for their object of study. This has a long tradition. Already Voltaire believed that the Chinese had an enlightened system of government because of the reports sent back by the Jesuits, even though Chinese rulers often exhibited a cruelty that would have make you hairs stand on end. Likewise, the European left still idealized Mao's teaching while millions in China were suffering during the great leap forwards or the cultural revolution. These are only two examples to show you that the image of China is often more positive than reality warrants. But it is a general phenomenon not limited to these examples.

But don't be jealous! If Turkey stop exporting terrorism and start exporting real stuff, you can perhaps catch up with Guangzhou's GDP in a decade or two!

China is not a big power yet, but you are certainly doing well at picking up big power arrogance ;-)

What happened to the humble Chinese you were talking about earlier?
User avatar
By Potemkin
#14511897
China is not a big power yet, but you are certainly doing well at picking up big power arrogance ;-)

It is merely the effortless self-assurance which comes with finding one's rightful place in the world, Atlantis. I mean, the Chinese are almost attaining British levels of arrogance now. Welcome to the club, benpenguin!
By benpenguin
#14512060
So all your assurances that China will not dominate are not worth a thing.

My point is not that China doesn't want to dominate. My point is we can't - too many competing powers to keep us in check, and too many cultural barriers.

My point is that the West has to clearly face this fact and act accordingly, not by suppressing China by political or military pressure, but by adopting an industrial policy that will make sure we can compete economically with China in the future.

Exactly my point too.

Oh stop complaining!

Yeah, I know that's not going anywhere. Just demonstrating the fact that we won't get to dominate when everyone doesn't like us.

What happened to the humble Chinese you were talking about earlier?

Hehe, the guy makes snide/hostile comments to every single thread about China, so I just decided to give him a go
By Atlantis
#14512157
Potemkin wrote:It is merely the effortless self-assurance which comes with finding one's rightful place in the world, Atlantis. I mean, the Chinese are almost attaining British levels of arrogance now. Welcome to the club, benpenguin!

I think they still have some way to go, but when they do they may well outdo you guys.

Anyways, its a bit more complex than that. The British used to have that effortless self-assurance that comes from knowing that you are superior to everyone else. But your generation seems to have lost it; so you are struggling with self-doubt and start flaying about wildly.

The Chinese, on the other hand, always knew that they are superior, except that, in modern times, others didn't always see it that way. That is what they are about to rectify so that once again China may be the center of the known World as in the golden age of the Tang. Soon Chinese historians will view Western hegemony as a short interval interrupting almost continued Chinese hegemony of thousands of years.

benpenguin wrote:My point is not that China doesn't want to dominate. My point is we can't - too many competing powers to keep us in check, and too many cultural barriers. ... Just demonstrating the fact that we won't get to dominate when everyone doesn't like us.

It doesn't matter what you want, domination will just follow naturally from economic power. Look at how the Germans dominate European affairs even though they don't even have nukes. They just have deep pockets. 20 years ago nobody would have believed it.

With a population of 1.3 billion, most of the World depending on China trade, and the World's wealth accumulating in the Far East, Chinese culture will become dominant. So its those who are not familiar with it that are at a disadvantage. The Chinese don't like to learn English. Anybody who wants to do business with them, from the Paris hotelier to the American export manager, will have to do so in Chinese.

Hehe, the guy makes snide/hostile comments to every single thread about China, so I just decided to give him a go

The poor guy is from a Muslim country. That in itself is punishment enough. No point rubbing it in ;-)
By benpenguin
#14512470
We will see, but you'd be surprised how much effort my compatriots spend in learning English! English will continue to be the world tongue for the foreseeable future I think. Besides, Chinese language is way too hard to learn.
Also, in the past century, a lot of Chinese people actually view themselves inferior. Up till now, our internet is filled with posts advocating the superiority of the west. (You still see things like "See how American parents teach their kids!" "10 ways why German railway systems are better than ours!" all the time on Weibo / WeChat)
We are just beginning to pick up confidence in the recent 5-6 years - still a long way to the club lol.
By Atlantis
#14512515
benpenguin wrote:Also, in the past century, a lot of Chinese people actually view themselves inferior.

I'm talking about history, ben!

The Chinese clearly saw themselves as superior at least up to the 18th century, even though doubts started to creep in by the 16th century, when they were confronted with the tidbits of Western science and technology the Jesuits showed them. The response by Chinese intellectuals at the time was to differentiate between "technical" and "human" sciences, wherein they conceded that the West had a little advantage in the former while the Chinese would always be superior in the latter.

The idea of catching up with the West (the US) has only been actively pursued since the Communist took over.

PS: I have studied both Chinese and Japanese. So I know a thing or two about the difficulties of learning these languages. But humans are inventive, once there is enough incentive to learn Chinese for economic or knowledge-reasons, people will find a way around that difficulty (or the written language will be simplified, it wouldn't be the first time).

Of course, Chinese spend a lot of time learning English, because they have too. But the wealthy Chinese doesn't have to, he expects to be humored in whatever way he fancies. The arrogance of wealthy Chinese is something to behold!
By benpenguin
#14512900
I doubt the impact of ancient history would have greater impact to the us than the more recent "age of shame" - but I guess no point in us arguing. In any case, I'd rather not see the "Heavenly dynasty" return. Parent-vessel state relationship is a thing of the past and the mentality is very bad for modern day diplomacy.
By Atlantis
#14513447
benpenguin wrote:I doubt the impact of ancient history would have greater impact to the us than the more recent "age of shame" - but I guess no point in us arguing. In any case, I'd rather not see the "Heavenly dynasty" return. Parent-vessel state relationship is a thing of the past and the mentality is very bad for modern day diplomacy.

What you call the "heavenly dynasty" has never gone away. The communist cadre of today are the exact counterpart of the Confucian bureaucrat of past dynasties.

And China's current economic success is due to the fact that it has rejected modernity, at least in the social and political spheres.

And what are you going to offer to the people if you refuse ancestor worship? Christian ethics? Surely, Confucian ethics is more appropriate.
By benpenguin
#14513457
Oh I was only referring to the foreign policy part of "Heavenly Dynasty". Expecting "barbarians" like Philippines and Viewnam to bow to our superior culture and view us as parent state is very unrealistic, especially when there are so many powerful nations around the neighbourhood competing for influence. So that part has to be changed.
As with China's internal politics, thousands of years in history will leave its mark, but we certainly do adapt. Many aspects of foreign political thoughts and structures made its way into China - for example, Xi Jinping himself was voted into office within the Communist party and will step down when his term comes to an end, like his predecessor. I won't comment if that's good or bad, but this is already fundamentally different from the "mandate of heaven" framework we used to have.
#14538969
I think it is highly difficult to generalize any kind of a comment about a country with as many people as China has. It is very hard to even know what "the average Chinese person" believes due to their not having political expression. I think I will say my view from living in USA and what it seems we in America think and feel about China: 1) There is actually a LOT of positive news stories about Chinese wealth generation and amazement at their economic growth 2) There is increasing concern/suspicion about China's rise to power and worry that somehow it might overtake the USA due to its having a MUCH larger total population, as well as a far richer history 3) There is still probably some inherent bigoted reactions to China from Americans, and we probably view China as almost like every Chinese person is exactly identical

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