[UnusuallyUsual]

By the question I mean... since PRC no longer even pretends to be aspiring towards Communism at all anymore. Why does Taiwan even object to being absorbed into it? Surely it would benefit the Taiwanese much as it benefits those in Hong Kong currently.

I just don't understand why there would be any kind of a deep or passionate objection to this anymore.

[Dagoth Ur]

Because according to Taiwan they are the Chinese government. If they just accepted PRC rule they'd invalidate themselves.

[UnusuallyUsual]

Because according to Taiwan they are the Chinese government. If they just accepted PRC rule they'd invalidate themselves.

Ok? But I mean to the overall body politic of Taiwan. Why would they care? I don't think their leaders being "demoted" is a strong factor for them.

[Dagoth Ur]

I disagree. It is like the American ruling elite trying to rejoin the crown. There would be an insurrection against this in seconds. You cannot undermine the very basis of your nation and expect it to go smoothly.

[annatar1914]

Taiwan matters, because the PRC are still Bolsheviks, they are just running a more long-term NEP strategy. Taiwan is the last remnant of any kind of free China, and it's government is the legal Chinese government, despite the betrayal of the United States and the rest of the world by allowing Red China-covered with the blood of millions-to take up China's seat on the UN Security Council.

Just one man's opinion...

[benpenguin]

^And that's a rather narrow opinion...

Historically, both Mao and Cheng insist that there is only one China. They just disagree on who's the ruling government. Realistically we are already two different countries. But our leaders have to remain politically correct, so we still need to insist that Taiwan is part of China, but in fact there is no actual effort to push this agenda.

In Taiwan, the blues (Kuomintang) talks about "One China" (But more or less played it down), but the greens (Progressive party) wants independence. But despite what the politicians say most Taiwanese already see themselves as a sovereign country anyway.

In the greater game, Taiwan is already economically integrated into China heavily and I see no need for China to actually rule the place. The only headache is that Taiwan is becoming a staging ground for west liberalism and a hot bed for anti-CCP activists, along with Hong Kong.

In any case, if we take Taiwan back this will only radicalize the hatred and make the problem worse. Better keep it as it is and focus on economics.

[annatar1914]

^And that's a rather narrow opinion...

Historically, both Mao and Cheng insist that there is only one China. They just disagree on who's the ruling government. Realistically we are already two different countries. But our leaders have to remain politically correct, so we still need to insist that Taiwan is part of China, but in fact there is no actual effort to push this agenda.

In Taiwan, the blues (Kuomintang) talks about "One China" (But more or less played it down), but the greens (Progressive party) wants independence. But despite what the politicians say most Taiwanese already see themselves as a sovereign country anyway.

In the greater game, Taiwan is already economically integrated into China heavily and I see no need for China to actually rule the place. The only headache is that Taiwan is becoming a staging ground for west liberalism and a hot bed for anti-CCP activists, along with Hong Kong.

In any case, if we take Taiwan back this will only radicalize the hatred and make the problem worse. Better keep it as it is and focus on economics.

I'm aware that it is a narrow opinion, but baring the return of the Emperors to the rule of China, the position of the KMT is my default one. Republics are built entirely upon Bayonets and Blood, and some more than others. Therefore, the situation cannot endure for long, nor in stability.

[benpenguin]

Well, CCP built it on Bayonet and Blood too. What's your point?

And the situation has already endured for very, very long time and nobody has a problem with it. I don't see any need to dig up old skeletons.

[annatar1914]

Well, CCP built it on Bayonet and Blood too. What's your point?

And the situation has already endured for very, very long time and nobody has a problem with it. I don't see any need to dig up old skeletons.

Yes, and it remains that way. What can sustain China better? Not democracy, surely. The CCP is a clear break from the flow of the life of Han China.

There are people still alive who remember the world before the CCP came to power on mainland China in 1948. Not very 'old skeletons' when you consider as a whole the life of a Country, a Nation.

[benpenguin]

Let's face it, life was shit during the earlier years of CCP rule, but it was A LOT shittier before. This alone has already legitamized the communists.

These skeletons are old because they are no longer relevant. Nobody in China wants to see the return of the Kuomintang, barring the few crazy liberals who still fumes democracy wet dreams. But even those didn't welcome the return of Kuomintang because of their de jure sovereignty, but rather ideology.

[annatar1914]

Let's face it, life was shit during the earlier years of CCP rule, but it was A LOT shittier before. This alone has already legitamized the communists.

These skeletons are old because they are no longer relevant. Nobody in China wants to see the return of the Kuomintang, barring the few crazy liberals who still fumes democracy wet dreams. But even those didn't welcome the return of Kuomintang because of their de jure sovereignty, but rather ideology.

The last years of the Manchu Dynasty were bad; Taiping Rebellion, the Opium Wars, Boxer Rebellion, the unfair treaties with the Western powers.... Clearly the Manchu had lost the 'Mandate of Heaven'

The 20th century is just an extension of this, an unnatural development just as the Mongols were, but ultimately just as ephemeral to China. These modern states are just Bandit regimes temporarily in unsteady power during an interregnum between Dynasties.

[benpenguin]

Not really. CCP is already a dynasty, in that sense. I don't know where you get the idea that the communist party is illegitimate in Chinese minds? Despite all its flaws CCP is also Chinese, you know.
The CCP has clearly claimed the "mandate of heaven" through right of conquest and decent rule, and in the foreseeable future I would say it is quite stable.
Or do you mean China is eventually going to return to monarchy? I find that extremely unlikely even if CCP suddenly fall.

[FreeStyle]

... since PRC no longer even pretends to be aspiring towards Communism at all anymore.

What do you mean? Marxism and "politics" are still required to be taught in middle schools and universities. There is still no general freedom of speech in China. As a Chinese, I don't see your point here.

[FreeStyle]

Not really. CCP is already a dynasty, in that sense. I don't know where you get the idea that the communist party is illegitimate in Chinese minds? Despite all its flaws CCP is also Chinese, you know.
The CCP has clearly claimed the "mandate of heaven" through right of conquest and decent rule, and in the foreseeable future I would say it is quite stable.
Or do you mean China is eventually going to return to monarchy? I find that extremely unlikely even if CCP suddenly fall.

As a Chinese, I don't think CCP is legitimate in a modern sense. Its mere legitimacy lies in its control over PLA, which is barbarously obsolete.

[benpenguin]

FreeStyle, where are you from? A lot of Chinese I know are fierecely loyal to China + CCP (Seeing it as one), and optimistic to the future. This loyalty has very little to do with military strength. Even disendents don't argue on the grounds of "legitimacy", but ideology mostly. Personally I can very much approve the CCP's job in running the country (at least lately).

If by "modern legitimacy" you mean elections, you are coming to the wrong part of the world. “Legitmacy = democracy” is pretty much an absurd rationale in China.

[ThirdTerm]

There will not be free elections in China as long as the Chinese Communist Party is controlling the country. The CCP has no interest in exporting Communism overseas but if Taiwan is absorbed by Communist China in the near future, Taiwan will be ruled by a local Communist party. Any democratic rights in Taiwan such as freedoms of speech, press, assembly, and petition will become obsolete as is the case with Hong Kong, which is being deprived of the legislative power to elect its own leader.

[youtube]48-YYwsO-70[/youtube]

Hong Kong bucked Beijing again on Thursday, but China's Communist Party was quick to remind the former British colony that, in choosing future leaders, the mainland will reign supreme. Celebrations by pro-democracy crowds, many of which supported huge street protests across the territory last year, were muted. "There is a lot of tension in Hong Kong arising from this political reform controversy and our society has never been so divided," Democratic Party lawmaker Albert Ho said. The Communist Party was quick to remind democracy activists that it would not entertain alternative proposals for choosing Hong Kong's future leaders. In a terse statement, the government-run Xinhua news service said that China's decision on Hong Kong's electoral system last August "will remain in force in the future, despite Hong Kong Legislative Council's veto of the universal suffrage motion."
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/69533 ... m-rejected

[Igor Antunov]

disagree. It is like the American ruling elite trying to rejoin the crown.

Didn't know the US was run by the British Nationalist party. Fascinating.

such as freedom of religion and freedom of expression will become obsolete as is the case with Hong Kong.

Hong Kong is right now more free, more autonomous than it has ever been in its entire existence.

[FreeStyle]

A lot of Chinese I know are fierecely loyal to China + CCP (Seeing it as one), ...

If not none, this "lot" of people is only a tiny portion of the whole population. There is simply no such thing as "loyalty" to a political organization in China nowadays. In public and political affairs, everybody is only loyal to the money they can make.

Please be polite to other users. - Political Interest

[Ganeshas Rat]

Taiwan has the local elite descending from the old true Chinese elite. Even so, it could be not very big and important branch of power before, nowadays they are the only successors of China Empire. For them the modern government of China will be upstarts from nowhere forever, no matter if they establish communism or dismantle it. So how can Taiwan join China voluntarily without force? The only acceptable solution is China joining Taiwan. It is impossible, so there is nothing to talk about: this conflict is undecidable with diplomacy.

[benpenguin]

you are lying. If not none, this "lot" of people is only a tiny portion of the whole population. There is simply no such thing as "loyalty" to a political organization in China nowadays. In public and political affairs, everybody is only loyal to the money they can make.

And why would I lie about that? Just my own simple observation.

While CCP has its faults and had been absolutely horrible under Mao and his cultural revolution - they grew the country from a wartorn shithole with no basic infrastructure to speak of, fought 100 years straight against every major world power, populated by a bunch of hungry uneducated peasants, into the world's no.2 economy. (You will probably attribute that of Chinese people being industrious, or China steals from the West. Meh whatever) Why would that not win loyalty?

Whether you agree with us nationalists or not, that's your own business. To be honest I find it amusing to see liberals squirm in disbelief when anybody profess approval to the Chinese government. You lot seem to never be able to comprehend politics beyond the realm of "Democracy = good, authoritarian = bad", and will hate China (Under the pretensie that you only hate CCP) with a burning passion regardless of their achievements.

Your reply to me will involve lots of bashing against China's human right records, pollution, corruption, lack of freedom of speech, people migrating, blah blah blah, as if deveoping a shithole into a world power will be all squeaky clean and problem free. I will counter the list by giving you more of those problems from "democratic" countries all around the world, and you will tell me those countries are "not true democracy" or is on transition into paradises in the future, because vote.

You will probably conclude your reply in saying that China will collapse in the next 1-2 decades, because *Insert social problem*. Like the last 1839571239 predictions I have heard in the last 2 decades.

You might then decide to go down the route of attacking me personally of being a CCP agent or a brainwashed drone who will turn on the government and apply for asylum in US when CCP randomly cracks down on me and take away my *FREEEEDOM(R)*. FYI, if this of any interest to you, I am 30 years old, born in Hong Kong and then lived in Australia for 7 years until I went to work in China 2 years ago. I have seen my share of China bashing viewpoints from the "free media" for 27 straight years. They remain repetitive, stale, boring, exaggerated and fake. To be honest, not much better than Chinese state media, just better packaged.

Have I covered everything? I must have repeated this shit for like 15 times now.