[annatar1914]

Yes.

Because that is what they were literally doing and supporting. You know people play more heeds to actions than words or do you think North Korea is a democracy and republic?

Propagandist buzzwords don't matter, what matters is what they were doing on ground and which was supporting the cause of their master and that cause was extermination.

You do recall that Hitler didn't trust them, and relied on Russophobic Nazi party officials advice when he could have easily won the war against the Soviet Union with Anti-Bolshevik Russians. There are those who say that Hitler was led down the path of stupidity regarding the ROA by secret Communists within the NSDAP-they did exist.

If Max von Scheubner-Richter had not died under mysterious circumstances, and been replaced by Alfred Rosenberg, things might have been different from the beginning within the NSDAP, and of course that couldn't be allowed...

[fuser]

Yes some conspiracy theory nutters speak weird things and if only Sun were Moon.

The fact of the matter is that Vlassov the traitor was a lapdog of and worked for his Nazi masters without them he was nothing and the said masters were in Russia to exterminate Russians and you say that Vlassov the traitor was for liberating Russia, more pathetic things have never been spoken.

[annatar1914]

Yes some conspiracy theory nutters speak weird things and if only Sun were Moon.

The fact of the matter is that Vlassov the traitor was a lapdog of and worked for his Nazi masters without them he was nothing and the said masters were in Russia to exterminate Russians and you say that Vlassov the traitor was for liberating Russia, more pathetic things have never been spoken.

Well, it ties in with the blindness of those who don't see Bolshevism, in the PRC and elsewhere, for what it is. You're making light of a heroic man (and of true heroism Bolsheviks know nothing) who was tragically caught between two devils, two fires. And the one devil who actually was clever and astute enough to exploit Russian Nationalism more than their enemy managed to win-barely.

The whole narrative concerning the truth about WWII, or anything after 1917, really, has been poisoned by the revolutionary lies of the Marxist-Leninist camp.

[fuser]

lol, tragically caught. He consciously chose to work for his genocidal masters to butcher Russians, Jews, Ukranians and what not, many generals were caught by Nazis but they were not spineless coward like Vlassov looking to save their skins

Hero? Yes what a noble hero for he worked with genociders who were there to genocide every person in between warsaw and urals and he is a hero for those people in twisted logic of a very few, thankfully this sort of insanity is not prevalent.

Tell me though, you haven't yet. How killing Russians who didn't wished to be exterminated was a heroic deed done by hiwis?

Oh and once again with you went with your great logic of, "lies all lies" to refute the towering truth in front of you.

[annatar1914]

Fuser, you replied;

lol, tragically caught. He consciously chose to work for his genocidal masters to butcher Russians, Jews, Ukranians and what not, many generals were caught by Nazis but they were not spineless coward like Vlassov looking to save their skins

Was he aware of genocide? If he was a 'spineless coward', would he have headed up the ROA instead of just remaining a POW?

Hero? Yes what a noble hero for he worked with genociders who were there to genocide every person in between warsaw and urals and he is a hero for those people in twisted logic of a very few, thankfully this sort of insanity is not prevalent.

Provide evidence that even the most radical Nazis wished to genocide everybody between Warsaw and the Urals, please.

Tell me though, you haven't yet. How killing Russians who didn't wished to be exterminated was a heroic deed done by hiwis?

Were they killing Bolshevik partisans behind Axis lines, rather?

Oh and once again with you went with your great logic of, "lies all lies" to refute the towering truth in front of you.

You haven't actually proven anything, which fits rather well with the whole theme of the thread; 'cynical exploitation of WWII'.

[fuser]

Was he aware of genocide? If he was a 'spineless coward', would he have headed up the ROA instead of just remaining a POW?

You are saying that he was not aware of Genocide? What kind of rock he had buried himself into?

And yes just because he was a spineless coward he headed ROA rather than to suffer inhumane conditions of prison camps built for you know "subhumans" and possible threat of death in those camps. Good god people are actually that much blinded that they are now asking questions with obvious answers.

Provide evidence that even the most radical Nazis wished to genocide everybody between Warsaw and the Urals, please.

So it was not a war of extermination then, eh? This is what you are claiming now? Of course few would had been allowed to live to work as slaves for German factories and farms, what's your point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Were they killing Bolshevik partisans behind Axis lines, rather?

Oh, the horror of them not flying in front of German bullets to die. How dare they actually fought the invaders who were looking to exterminate them?

If only they had surrendered and walked off in gas chambers to die silently, they would had been liberated by Vlassov and his traitorous hiwis.

You haven't actually proven anything, which fits rather well with the whole theme of the thread; 'cynical exploitation of WWII'.

Ummm and what exactly I have to prove here? That people who work for genocider maniacs to genocide a group of people can't be hero of that group of people?



Its great to see in few post from "Vlassov liberating Russia", you are down to defending Nazi Germany who went to war to exterminated Russians, actually quite fitting.

[annatar1914]

You are saying that he was not aware of Genocide? What kind of rock he had buried himself into?

Can you show that Gen. Vlasov was aware of Genocide?

And yes just because he was a spineless coward he headed ROA rather than to suffer inhumane conditions of prison camps built for you know "subhumans" and possible threat of death in those camps. Good god people are actually that much blinded that they are now asking questions with obvious answers.

Umm.... The fact that most ROA volunteers were cooling their heels in prison camps (stupid for the Germans to have that situation develop) instead of being used as an actual Anti-Bolshevik ally-and yet these guys still yearned to go out and kill Bolsheviks in spite of German inhumanity, says something about Communism, not Gen. Vlasov and the ROA.

So it was not a war of extermination then, eh? This is what you are claiming now? Of course few would had been allowed to live to work as slaves for German factories and farms, what's your point?

My statement was in response to yours, which was a claim of German plans to genocide everybody between Warsaw and the Urals. My point is that only a lunatic, or worse, a secret Bolshevik, would be behind such a plan, in order to drive Russians into fighting with the Bolsheviks instead of against them. It is a statement about official NSDAP wartime stupidity... Or sabotage.

Oh, the horror of them not flying in front of German bullets to die. How dare they actually fought the invaders who were looking to exterminate them?

I imagine that if the Germans had been smarter ideologically, most of the 'Partisans' would've been on the German side if they had been genuine liberators from Bolshevism. They were welcomed initially as such.

If only they had surrendered and walked off in gas chambers to die silently, they would had been liberated by Vlassov and his traitorous hiwis.

Ummm and what exactly I have to prove here? That people who work for genocider maniacs to genocide a group of people can't be hero of that group of people?

You're on a tangent, probably deliberately. My point is that any fighter against Communism in Eastern Europe during WWII had horrible choices, alienated by the Western Allies, mistrusted and abused by the Axis, and murdered by the Communists. If this is any example of what's in store for any reasoned revision of Far Eastern recent history, unmuddied by propaganda from the period, the prospects for a cessation of exploitation of the war to this day aren't good.

Its great to see in few post from "Vlassov liberating Russia"

It's what he wanted to do. That he wasn't allowed or encouraged to do it was entirely Nazi Germany's stupidity.

, you are down to defending Nazi Germany who went to war to exterminated Russians, actually quite fitting.

See the above post; I can hardly be seen as defending a Fascist regime being a traditional monarchist reactionary, a distinction lost on most Communists I guess. So not only is your claim of my defending Nazi Germany when i've pointed out the stupidity of their not fully supporting the ROA, is not only wrong factually, but quite offensive.

But to a revolutionary, words have no intrinsic truth or meaning, they are only weapons and tools for the revolution. Right?

Now, as for how this relates to the thread; I am happy to see that the CCP at least has become a more Nationalist entity for China and China's interests, and leaving behind Bolshevism just as Russia did. It's just that it would be well for all involved to bury the hatchet with Japan and work peacefully for overall world prosperity.

[fuser]

Can you show that Gen. Vlasov was aware of Genocide?

Everyone was in 1944, don't be so daft. Unless he was a complete retard, there's no reason to think otherwise.

Umm.... The fact that most ROA volunteers were cooling their heels in prison camps (stupid for the Germans to have that situation develop) instead of being used as an actual Anti-Bolshevik ally-and yet these guys still yearned to go out and kill Bolsheviks in spite of German inhumanity, says something about Communism, not Gen. Vlasov and the ROA.

Do you know anything about anything. ROA were notorious for desertion, Germans didn't trusted them at all and that is exactly why they were never send in frontline roles in east, most of the ROA ironically were send off to west.

My point is that only a lunatic, or worse, a secret Bolshevik, would be behind such a plan, in order to drive Russians into fighting with the Bolsheviks instead of against them. It is a statement about official NSDAP wartime stupidity... Or sabotage.

The fuck you are talking about. Now are you claiming that Germans didn't waged a war of extermination in east?

I imagine that if the Germans had been smarter ideologically, most of the 'Partisans' would've been on the German side if they had been genuine liberators from Bolshevism. They were welcomed initially as such.

Oh the fantasy.

They were only cheered in portion of Baltics and western Ukraine and not everywhere.

Good to see you have been reduced to emoticons after making such a very very stupid comment.

My point is that any fighter against Communism in Eastern Europe during WWII had horrible choices, alienated by the Western Allies, mistrusted and abused by the Axis, and murdered by the Communists. If this is any example of what's in store for any reasoned revision of Far Eastern recent history, unmuddied by propaganda from the period, the prospects for a cessation of exploitation of the war to this day aren't good.

What are you blathering about? You are the one here supporting people who were supporting genocidal maniacs looking to exterminate entire group of people, its actually very simple, I don't support that unlike you.

It's what he wanted to do. That he wasn't allowed or encouraged to do it was entirely Nazi Germany's stupidity.

Yes he was reminded of that only after being captured by Germany and knowing fully what was happening in the war i.e. genocide of entire population groups, he supported the side that was doing that extermination and somehow to you he is the hero of that population group.

See the above post; I can hardly be seen as defending a Fascist regime being a traditional monarchist reactionary, a distinction lost on most Communists I guess.

I don't care what laughable ideology you identify yourself with, you were defending Nazi in this thread with your words and that's it. Only a Nazi sympathizers will defend the killings of brave partisans resisting them and saving swaths of people from being exterminated including themselves, period.

So not only is your claim of my defending Nazi Germany when i've pointed out the stupidity of their not fully supporting the ROA, is not only wrong factually, but quite offensive.

The only stupidity here is that you think Nazi should or should not support ROA while the fact of the matter is that ROA was supporting Nazis.

But to a revolutionary, words have no intrinsic truth or meaning, they are only weapons and tools for the revolution. Right?

lol, look who is talking. Vlassov hero of Russians for he supported a side which was there for exterminating Russians.

[Thompson_NCL]

The British, famous for their Irish and Indian famines, also participated in that definition frollein. Sounds more like a German trying to play "yeah sure the holocaust nevermind that, but did you know the Soviets had their own genocide called the Holodomor?" It is almost like the entire concept was drawn up to draw an equivilency between fascism and bolshevism... oh yeah, right, that is exactly what it is.

You cannot compare the Holdomor the the Indian or Irish famines. The latter were natural phenomena exacerbated by poor decision making. There are suggestions from some that these may have been attempts at genocide, but its a fairly weak argument. The Holodomor was entirely man-made and there is plenty of scholarly evidence to support the intent being to cause a genocide of the people.

I personally don't really care if the Holodomor was genocide or not. The Soviets were defeated and are unlikely to rear their head again in any meaningful way. But to try and deny they were on par with Nazi Germany in terms of the brutality of their politics is laughable.

But to bring this back on point, I don't think Japan was especially brutal relative to the period. They were trying to control a vast and rebellious population. That is how it was done. In any event, Japan paid the price and lost the war, China was on the winning side. Enough said.

[fuser]

You cannot compare the Holdomor the the Indian or Irish famines. The latter were natural phenomena exacerbated by poor decision making. There are suggestions from some that these may have been attempts at genocide, but its a fairly weak argument. The Holodomor was entirely man-made and there is plenty of scholarly evidence to support the intent being to cause a genocide of the people.

Nope, there is no scholarly evidence of any "intent" at all. Please provide the evidence any official record where USSR is wanting to exterminate/genocide any population group. On the contrary there are many comments from British officials including Churchill about how racially inferior people don't deserve any help or how its better to let people die than interfere in the glorious free market. If anything the "intent" is stronger with the British case.

But yeah I don't consider in either of the cases there was any real intent at genociding any group of people on par with Nazis.

But to try and deny they were on par with Nazi Germany in terms of the brutality of their politics is laughable.

Ummmm, no. What is laughable is the age old tactics of trying to equate anything to Nazis and declare it bad.

British Empire was as brutal as any but I am not going to compare it with Nazi Germany for a cheap point, they were all a different beast and Industrial scale of Mass killing was indeed something unique to Nazi Germany.

[annatar1914]

Well since fuser is making my point for me by insisting on defaming anti-communists and impugning their motives and linking them in ideology to the NSDAP of Hitler, it will not obfuscate the truth that Bolsheviks worldwide will lie and cynically use historical events to drive wedges between their enemies. It is my hope that a new China is being born today, a China in line with her long historical traditions and not the barbarous Communism or grotesque Capitalism that has alternated ruling mainland China since 1911, and a good start would be good relations with Japan.

[FreeStyle]

Does China exploit WWII cynically?

OK, as a Chinese, let's define "China" first. if "china" means the the chinese communist party, yes, "China" does exploit WWII cynically.

Hope this answers the question.