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Political issues in the People's Republic of China.

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#15023727
China released the latest version of its «Defense White Paper». According to the document, Beijing does not strive for world leadership, military expansion or the creation of zones of its own influence, but at the same time it is preparing to turn its Armed Forces into a world-class army by the middle of the century. Also, despite the fact that in the updated version of the US defense strategy of the Pentagon China was among the key opponents of America, Beijing adheres to the principle of «mutual respect» and even seeks military cooperation with Washington. At the same time, China closely cooperates in many areas with Russia, a direct adversary of the United States.

Also China recalls its rights to the disputed islands in the East China and South China Seas and stands for total nuclear disarmament. So what is China aiming for? There are so many contradictions.
https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/chinas- ... the-lines/
#15023736
Jonnorth wrote:China released the latest version of its «Defense White Paper». According to the document, Beijing does not strive for world leadership, military expansion or the creation of zones of its own influence, but at the same time it is preparing to turn its Armed Forces into a world-class army by the middle of the century. Also, despite the fact that in the updated version of the US defense strategy of the Pentagon China was among the key opponents of America, Beijing adheres to the principle of «mutual respect» and even seeks military cooperation with Washington. At the same time, China closely cooperates in many areas with Russia, a direct adversary of the United States.

Also China recalls its rights to the disputed islands in the East China and South China Seas and stands for total nuclear disarmament. So what is China aiming for? There are so many contradictions.
https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/chinas- ... the-lines/

China has already made it clear that they want to become the leading power in the world.
#15023848
Chinese White Papers have always focused on China’s broad "peaceful" intentions, while underestimating its own military capabilities. The new Chinese White Paper is much more moderate in its treatment of military developments in China than U.S. strategy papers. However, China is intent on dominating the South China Sea with an emphasis on “combat readiness and military training in real combat conditions,” making it China's own sphere of influence. No other regional powers can challenge China’s new warfighting capabilities.

The White Paper also highlights a new Chinese emphasis on “combat readiness and military training in real combat conditions” and China’s new warfighting capabilities in the Western Pacific and South China Sea,

Military training in real combat conditions across the armed forces is in full swing. Since 2012, China’s armed forces have carried out extensive mission-oriented training tailored to the specific needs of different strategic directions and exercises of all services and arms, including 80 joint exercises at and above brigade/division level…. The Theater Commands have strengthened their leading role in joint training and organized serial joint exercises codenamed the East, the South, the West, the North and the Central, to improve joint combat capabilities. The PLA Army (PLAA) has organized training competitions and conducted live exercises codenamed Stride and Firepower. The PLA Navy (PLAN) has extended training to the far seas and deployed the aircraft carrier task group for its first far seas combat exercise in the West Pacific. It has organized naval parades in the South China Sea … and conducted a series of live force-on-force exercises …The PLA Air Force (PLAAF) has … has conducted combat patrols in the South China Sea and security patrols in the East China Sea, and operated in the West Pacific…The PLA Rocket Force (PLARF) has organized force-on-force evaluation-oriented training and training based on operational plans at brigade and regiment levels, strengthened training for joint strikes, and completed regular exercises such as Heavenly Sword.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/chinas-ne ... hite-paper
#15023870
China wants to rejuvenate itself as the Middle Kingdom. What that means is China’s rightful place in the world is that China should be the centre of civilisation, hence the middle, as in central power. So that does necessitate becoming the world’s leading power.

Historically, this was the case. China was always the leading centre of power and civilisation in the Far East. Chinese greatness was eclipsed by European and Japanese power. Possibly some revenge will be sort to regain face.

So Chinese nationalists, radical traditionalists and such just want to be the dominant group globally. Maybe a bit of racial superiority too. Traditionally, external powers would be expected to become tributary states, though that mainly involved acknowledging Chinese superiority and not attacking China. Otherwise such states were independent. In this century, given China now needs external resources, and thus a European style colonial empire, the Tributary state will most likely be more like a protectorate or colony rather than the traditional form.

I think it will be very difficult for Chinese ambition to be realised. Most likely, they will fail to become as great as they think they should be, due to effective resistance from the rest of the world, and the Chinese leadership will be replaced while they devise a more practical view of China’s place in the world. There might be a war before that happens. Seizing the S China sea has created conditions for war. By doing that, China’s leadership have risked their position of power while threatening a vital global trade route. Not a smart move.
#15027250
foxdemon wrote:China wants to rejuvenate itself as the Middle Kingdom. What that means is China’s rightful place in the world is that China should be the centre of civilisation, hence the middle, as in central power. So that does necessitate becoming the world’s leading power.

Historically, this was the case. China was always the leading centre of power and civilisation in the Far East. Chinese greatness was eclipsed by European and Japanese power. Possibly some revenge will be sort to regain face.

So Chinese nationalists, radical traditionalists and such just want to be the dominant group globally. Maybe a bit of racial superiority too. Traditionally, external powers would be expected to become tributary states, though that mainly involved acknowledging Chinese superiority and not attacking China. Otherwise such states were independent. In this century, given China now needs external resources, and thus a European style colonial empire, the Tributary state will most likely be more like a protectorate or colony rather than the traditional form.

I think it will be very difficult for Chinese ambition to be realised. Most likely, they will fail to become as great as they think they should be, due to effective resistance from the rest of the world, and the Chinese leadership will be replaced while they devise a more practical view of China’s place in the world. There might be a war before that happens. Seizing the S China sea has created conditions for war. By doing that, China’s leadership have risked their position of power while threatening a vital global trade route. Not a smart move.


They cannot even hold their own ass properly towards us Hongkongers. If they still don't accept the superiority of the West they will suffer very hard and I can't say I will be sympathetic.
#15027260
^ :lol: :lol:
Yea, honey, listen.
As much as I am against Chinese domestic policy, we've got to be realistic here; The only reason Hong Kong still has all its freedoms is that mainland China trades with the US and Europe and they pressure the Chinese government, through trade, to allow Hong Kong to have these freedoms.

Now, with the US trade war, the massive expansion of Chinese political influence in Europe, and the rapid growth of African consumer markets, that leverage is dwindling as the Chinese government is no longer in need of appeasing its consumers in the west and at a certain point clamping down on Hong Kong and even the annexation of Taiwan will become to have no effect on its economic interests; When it reaches that point, Hong Kong will become just another province of China under the CCP's control.

It's an unfortunate truth, but that's just the way it is for the time.
#15027267
anasawad wrote:^ :lol: :lol:
Yea, honey, listen.
As much as I am against Chinese domestic policy, we've got to be realistic here; The only reason Hong Kong still has all its freedoms is that mainland China trades with the US and Europe and they pressure the Chinese government, through trade, to allow Hong Kong to have these freedoms.

Now, with the US trade war, the massive expansion of Chinese political influence in Europe, and the rapid growth of African consumer markets, that leverage is dwindling as the Chinese government is no longer in need of appeasing its consumers in the west and at a certain point clamping down on Hong Kong and even the annexation of Taiwan will become to have no effect on its economic interests; When it reaches that point, Hong Kong will become just another province of China under the CCP's control.

It's an unfortunate truth, but that's just the way it is for the time.


If I die because of this I will try to find my way to haunt you...

Okay maybe I got too far. In fact, from what people here see, Chinese economy will collapse if they cannot hold the Western market. I have no confidence in the African market, especially when some parts of them are very plagued by crime, disease (Ebola!!!), terrorism, religioys fanaticsm, and all kinds of instability.
#15027273
@Patrickov
China is already cutting back on the US markets, and is already expanding and buying up Europe.

Regarding Africa; Africa has 54 countries, and while some are doing badly, others are doing very well.

Furthermore, you have the growth of domestic markets in China, a rapid growth at that as well.

So all while it is indeed true that the Chinese economy is going to have a set back in the upcoming years, it's hardly on its way to collapse, nor will it collapse from losing the American market since, technically, it's already cutting it down.

The only hopes for Hong Kong and Taiwan and others under the Chinese grip is perhaps India, but India itself isn't doing all that well lately, nor does it seem to be improving lately; Noting that India will take further hits with the approaching US bust.


Edit:
I must add that this doesn't necessarily mean giving up or any such thing, but rather the advice to adopt a more diplomatic and careful approach instead of creating hostilities that will only end up causing a harsher response.

It's a grave mistake to underestimate the CCP, and it's worse to start a war you can not finish.
#15027280
anasawad wrote:Edit:
I must add that this doesn't necessarily mean giving up or any such thing, but rather the advice to adopt a more diplomatic and careful approach instead of creating hostilities that will only end up causing a harsher response.

It's a grave mistake to underestimate the CCP, and it's worse to start a war you can not finish.


With the fundermental beliefs so different between us and the Chinese authorities, I actually fail to see any outcome other than war, although we believe that it's China starting it in the first place, because it is them actively seeking to restore its past glory without realizing how undeserving they are!

If they don't try to influence their agents in Hong Kong to come up with oppressive schemes such as the Extradiction Law, things will not be like this. They only have themselves to blame.
#15027283
@Patrickov
Wouldn't a more practical and productive strategy, in the age of social media, be to work to gradually change the culture, perception, and ideas rather than carrying an offensive against a much larger opponent in what can only be described as suicidal?


It doesn't matter who starts the war, as in the end, the victor writes the history. ;)
#15027294
anasawad wrote:@Patrickov
Wouldn't a more practical and productive strategy, in the age of social media, be to work to gradually change the culture, perception, and ideas rather than carrying an offensive against a much larger opponent in what can only be described as suicidal?

It doesn't matter who starts the war, as in the end, the victor writes the history. ;)


"Gradually"? We are actually doing it right now, but it doesn't seem that it is effective even in the defensive sense. You gravely underestimate how powerful this evil brainwashing is. Socialism + Nationlism can brainwash a whole bunch of people into evilness.

Even this forum is not immune.

[KS mod edit: Rule 2]
#15027297
@Patrickov
Not really, I'm fully aware of the actions and practices of the CCP; I simply think that if I was the leader of a movement in Hong Kong, it would've been a better idea to take the heavy fight when the CCP is in a weak point, not when it's at its peak.
Though now I guess it's too late for that.

Now probably the only remaining option that doesn't end in mass violence or a massacre is a diplomatic solution with a country other than the US at your side (Also India, though India has much bigger concerns at the moment so I doubt it'll act on anything).
If the US appeared to support the protesters in Hong Kong or some attempted to get the US to directly support them, then the crack down will be severe.
#15027298
anasawad wrote:@Patrickov
Not really, I'm fully aware of the actions and practices of the CCP; I simply think that if I was the leader of a movement in Hong Kong, it would've been a better idea to take the heavy fight when the CCP is in a weak point, not when it's at its peak.
Though now I guess it's too late for that.

Now probably the only remaining option that doesn't end in mass violence or a massacre is a diplomatic solution with a country other than the US at your side (Also India, though India has much bigger concerns at the moment so I doubt it'll act on anything).
If the US appeared to support the protesters in Hong Kong or some attempted to get the US to directly support them, then the crack down will be severe.


Sir, it's them and their agents in Hong Kong who didn't stop trying to take away our freedom. For 20+ years we believed and tried to do what you suggested, but to no avail. And you now blame this on us "not being gradual enough". You are effectively asking us to tolerate the government, police and the military even when they actually starts to kill us. How are you different from skinster?

Really, I no longer fear cracking down or dying. I just wish that this scum of a nation, as well as their supporters, will face the same fate when war inevitably breaks out.
#15027300
Patrickov wrote:Please look at how those awesome humans like skinster still claim that we are the violent ones here!


But there are plenty of videos and images showing the beating up of journalist and travelers, preventing medics getting to them, breaking cars with baseball bats, invading and vandalizing parliament buildings. Pretending this isn't happening isn't helpful to your point of view since it obviously is and has been well documented on social media and I've posted some of them in the main thread on these CIA funded protests.

Also, you should generally back off your attacks on me even if you disagree with me, since I'm not the only person with these views; social media and some leftwing journalists are also around writing articles and opinions with views that don't align to your / the mainstream version of events.

Having an expectation that everyone should agree with you is also fucking retarded. Grow up.
#15027301
skinster wrote:But there are plenty of videos and images showing the beating up of journalist and travelers, preventing medics getting to them, breaking cars with baseball bats, invading and vandalizing parliament buildings. Pretending this isn't happening isn't helpful to your point of view since it obviously is and has been well documented on social media and I've posted some of them in the main thread on these CIA funded protests.

Also, you should generally back off your attacks on me even if you disagree with me, since I'm not the only person who agrees with me; social media and some leftwing journalists are also around writing articles and opinions with views that don't align to your / the mainstream version of events.

Having an expectation that everyone should agree with you is also fucking retarded. Grow up.


Because the violence is actually from pro-China groups and the police, not the protesters. You only take information from the pro-China media, who constantly spread LIES. You are so brainwashed by pro-China information that it's stupid for you to guess that I am expecting you to agree. NO. I am asking the moderators to step in.
#15027303
@Patrickov
1- I don't care what other posters say here, none are representative of me.
2- I did not say it is your fault.


I know and fully understand what the CCP does. They're running concentration camps for fuck's sake, there isn't much lower bar to go below.
However what I am saying is that there were other means to solve this issue, meaning the people of Hong Kong could've used many forms of maneuvers to either redirect the CCP's attention or play them off against someone else.

From the looks of it right now, everything indicates a coming crackdown and potentially a massacre on the way, that's not a good thing and the organizers of the movement should've attempted to figure out a way how to avoid this confrontation, at the very least until they can get a foreign backer other than the US since the US-China relations are at their lowest point at the moment.
#15027305
anasawad wrote:@Patrickov
1- I don't care what other posters say here, none are representative of me.
2- I did not say it is your fault.


I know and fully understand what the CCP does. They're running concentration camps for fuck's sake, there isn't much lower bar to go below.
However what I am saying is that there were other means to solve this issue, meaning the people of Hong Kong could've used many forms of maneuvers to either redirect the CCP's attention or play them off against someone else.

From the looks of it right now, everything indicates a coming crackdown and potentially a massacre on the way, that's not a good thing and the organizers of the movement should've attempted to figure out a way how to avoid this confrontation, at the very least until they can get a foreign backer other than the US since the US-China relations are at their lowest point at the moment.


You are saying something easier said than done. Worse, I have already told you that we are doing exactly that. More seriously, who are we going to "redirect" that offensive to? (not now, but say, 10 years ago)
#15027311
Patrickov wrote:Because the violence is actually from pro-China groups and the police, not the protesters. You only take information from the pro-China media, who constantly spread LIES. You are so brainwashed by pro-China information that it's stupid for you to guess that I am expecting you to agree. NO. I am asking the moderators to step in.


I've posted a number of videos of violence coming from the protesters, you can deny that's not happening but others can also see what they see with their own eyes.

And you are only posting information from one side of the story, but you don't see me crying about that do you?

If you want to get the moderators to "step in", make a thread in The Basement where all complaints are dealt with.
#15027313
@Patrickov
Not really. No offense, but I'm from the middle east and I've lived through scenarios where both ends of these events were tried.
Confrontations with a much bigger foe when you're not prepared never ends well.


For the deflection part, well, this might sound bad, but there are many ways to throw someone under the bus. :lol:
Your leaders could've caused some mess with Taiwan as well to divert the focus to them instead, considering that Taiwan is under foreign military protection and already is independent, Some saboteurs could've tried to flare some troubles with neighboring countries diverting the attention there, etc.
Considering that everyone else in the region except for Hong Kong has foreign military protection, your leaders could've worked their way to divert the focus towards any of them without much effect on the other group.

Underground movements aren't exactly a new thing you know.
I mean, seriously, look at the middle east politics; Not just the headlines but follow the internal news, everyone is manipulating, sabotaging, and throwing everyone else under the bus in one issue or another, especially the smaller nations and groups do this to survive in the face of much bigger foes.


Personally, if I was an organizer there, I'd be looking for a way to flare up something elsewhere in the country right now.
#15027318
skinster wrote:I've posted a number of videos of violence coming from the protesters, you can deny that's not happening but others can also see what they see with their own eyes.

And you are only posting information from one side of the story, but you don't see me crying about that do you?


If all my family and social circle -- including many that I actually don't like -- is getting that side, then I fail to see why the other side has a point. Besides, those in power are already spewing out their words all the time, but the FACT is that there are 1M+ people explicitly showing their disagreement by taking onto the streets. Are you suggesting that all 1M of us are "anti-China violence supporters"? If we are violent, isn't it more probable that I am already dead meat now?

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