[skinster]

I wonder if most Chinese people dig China because of things like this, because this is pretty cool.

Chinese claims in the South China Sea, Chinese hard-ball methods along the BRI, Chinese neo-colonialism and land-grabbing in Africa, Chinese attempts to undermine the EU, Chinese arrogance in regard to colored people, etc., they are all signs of things to come. I guess Chinese leaders must understand that these things are counter-productive, but the arrogance of power has its own dynamics and will not be reigned in. In the end they'll fail, but at what cost ...

Please provide sources for this things.

[Atlantis]

Please provide sources for this things.

These things are in the public domain and have been presented at length in this forum as elsewhere.

As much as I oppose Anglo Imperialism, I have no illusion about the bloody-mindedness of Beijing leaders who didn't hesitate to massacre peaceful demonstrators with tanks at Tiananmen Square.

Western snow-flakes getting upset about heavy-handed police suppression of violent riots shouldn't suck the cocks of the Tiananmen butchers.

[skinster]

These things are in the public domain and have been presented at length in this forum as elsewhere.

There is propaganda, I'm yet to see evidence.

Just as there was and is propaganda demonising Cuba, Iraq, Libya, Venezuela, Syria, Iran, Russia, etc. Do you notice this pattern when we're taught in mainstream media to hate states that the State Dept is threatening? All just a coincidence, I'm sure...

As much as I oppose Anglo Imperialism, I have no illusion about the bloody-mindedness of Beijing leaders who didn't hesitate to massacre peaceful demonstrators with tanks at Tiananmen Square.

Western snow-flakes getting upset about heavy-handed police suppression of violent riots shouldn't suck the cocks of the Tiananmen butchers.

You can probably do with reading this. Thirty years after Tiananmen Square the U.S. is Still Trying to Destabilize China

And watching this.

Lol, I'm a "snowflake" for asking you for evidence for your opinions?

If Chinese imperialism is happening as much as you propagandists claim and you can't share any evidence of this, what does that say?

This is a debating forum, not your personal blog. If you make claims about something you shouldn't act like a man-baby when asked to present some evidence. If you can't, which is obvious at this stage that you can't, just say so and we can move along.

[Patrickov]

... but wisdom is a rare commodity among national leaders.

Most leaders are either intentionally selfish, forced to be selfish (if they don't their enemies will harm them and / or their family and aides harshly), or have to bow to populist thoughts, which are often unwise.

Such kind of decay makes wars inevitable. In other words, I don't actually believe world peace is an achievable goal. What we should do is to contain conflict or let it happen before it becomes too big to handle.

[Patrickov]

Also, the attitude and action from the Chinese government, including constantly denying even in the face of evidence, as well as suppressing discussion through persecution (Liu Xiaobo, Wang Dan, and the newest so-called "National Security Law"), pretty much proved their own guilt, and whatever written in their favour are automatically shameless propaganda.

Some people simply take life for granted and only do so because there are too few people have the will or power to punish them.

[skinster]

Also, the attitude and action from the Chinese government, including constantly denying even in the face of evidence

The shameless propaganda is yours and Western media's on "Muslim concentration camps". As if the West suddenly gives a fuck about Muslims anywhere.

No, the UN did not report China has ‘massive internment camps’ for Uighur Muslims

Xinjiang and Uyghurs — What You’re Not Being Told

U.S. public gets fake news about China’s alleged anti-Muslim campaign

Head of Uyghur Council funded by NED/CIA makes claims of these made-up concentration camps and when asked where he got the info from, admits he got his figures from Western media and...then Western media reports that guy saying "1 million Muslims in concentration camps"

[Rancid]

...Chinese (inside and outside the PRC)...

Chinese outside of PRC is a little more nuanced. Outside of the PRC they are exposed to more ideas, and are allowed to think a little more freely.

My experience with educated Chinese living in the west, is that they are certainly proud of Chinese culture (as they should be), but not necessarily proud of the CCP. I say educated, because I work in tech, so I'm exposed to the educated classes of various nations much more than the poorer immigrants classes.

I work with many Chinese and many of them understand how stifling and "top down" the CCP is. Most are actively trying to become US/UK citizens and get their families to the west so they don't have to go back. They'd rather raise their kids in the US. They acknowledge that the CCP has certainly helped millions upon millions of Chinese, but at the cost of an authoritarian government. It's a complex subject, basically.

My wife (Hong Kong) is friends with a main lander (been here about 5 years-ish) and within a year of living here, she quickly started noticing the effect of Chinese propaganda she see's in her old friends when she visits China. Just being out of China for a short time is enough to see the difference. Generally speaking, it's very hard for Chinese people inside of China to separate the idea that the Chinese people are separate from the CCP (the CCP has worked hard to equate the two as the same). That is, many Chinese people in China, will take an insult to the CCP very personally.

An older guy that's on the same team as me, was at the Tienamen square protests. He was a university student at the time. He's pretty fucking anti-CCP and not proud of what they've done. There is a difference between being proud of your culture/people, and being proud of an authoritarian government. Many Chinese outside of the PRC understand this difference. Seems like many of those inside, do not.


That's the double edge sword for China. They send many of their young people to study in the west. It's help China because many of these return, and bring new knowledge to help continue building what the CCP is doing. However, many try to stay in the west when they see how people in the west are not afraid or self-censor when they express discontent with their government. They start to understand and appreciate the relative more freedom in the west, and they want to continue living in that freedom.

[Patrickov]

The shameless propaganda is yours and Western media's on "Muslim concentration camps". As if the West suddenly gives a fuck about Muslims anywhere.

I actually do not comment on that much, but there's little doubt that the Chinese government treats everybody equally bad, sometimes including themselves. There is no need to use some specific thing to single someone out -- I try my best to only speak what I see.

Unlike some people who just make themselves either mouthpieces of CCP (e.g. you) or relays of Donald Trump, I do not spread whatever I see in my favour here, especially for those I have no proof or I don't dare to see.

And apparently you don't really have a point to explain the Chinese government's arrogant attitude, other than falsely accusing me of spreading propaganda when it is you who constantly spread lies. Indeed, such arrogance is shared among CCP supporters, and that group includes you and a few other Communist members on this forum.

Feeling so angry of this propagandist now, I may as well opine on the said "satisfaction".

IMHO those who said "satisfied" are either
1. Having Stockholm Syndrome, or
2. Thinking themselves being the winner, but are instead zombies, or in Chinese, 倀.

[Rancid]

I actually do not comment on that much, but there's little doubt that the Chinese government treats everybody equally bad, sometimes including themselves. I really do not need to assert something too specific.

Unlike some people who just make themselves either mouthpieces of CCP or relays of Donald Trump, etc.

For example, I do not spread whatever I see in my favour here, unlike you.

And apparently you don't really have a point to explain the Chinese government's arrogant attitude, other than falsely accusing me of spreading propaganda when it is you to constantly spread lies. Indeed, such arrogance is shared among CCP supporters, and that group includes you and a few other Communist members on this forum.

Skinster just looks at twitter to tell her what she should think and how she should feel.

[Patrickov]

Skinster just looks at twitter to tell her what she should think and how she should feel.

Not sure about that. If some PoFo members are correct about this propagandist's ethnic group (Pakistani), from what I heard this is their fundamental belief, because the CCP had been helping them to fend off India for most of their country's existence.

What makes this propagandist -- and authors of those tweets he shared -- bad, is that they are very hypocritical, because they all live in freer countries, but they all abuse or do not appreciate their freedom and advocate something worse.

They are even worse than Member QatzelOk -- at least the latter's ancestors were almost exclusively victims and himself did not choose to be under Western rule.

[Rancid]

Not sure about that. If some PoFo members are correct about this propagandist's ethnic group (Pakistani), from what I heard this is their fundamental belief, because the CCP had been helping them to fend off India for most of their country's existence.

What makes this propagandist -- and authors of those tweets he shared -- bad, is that they are very hypocritical, because they all live in freer countries, but they all abuse or do not appreciate their freedom and advocate something worse.

They are even worse than Member QatzelOk -- at least the latter's ancestors were almost exclusively victims and himself did not choose to be under Western rule.

You are probably right. My point was, she's plugged into her echo chamber, so her "opinions" are on auto pilot.

[Atlantis]

@Rancid, I generally agree with what you wrote; however, nationalism is a powerful force, especially among Chinese. It's true that many educated Chinese probably prefer to live in the West; however, there are also those who turn against the West because of perceived anti-Chinese sentiments in the West. It's the old story: "you don't understand us Chinese".

@skinster, I'm always open for debate. Potential imperialist tendencies in China are undeniable. It would be surprising if it were otherwise. The leadership doesn't even hide it. It's part and parcel of Chinese thinking.

I'm very curious about how you explain away the Tiananmen square massacre or the fact that people in China are not allowed to talk about it even today. Is that the kind of thing you approve of?

[Rancid]

@Rancid, I generally agree with what you wrote; however, nationalism is a powerful force, especially among Chinese. It's true that many educated Chinese probably prefer to live in the West; however, there are also those who turn against the West because of perceived anti-Chinese sentiments in the West. It's the old story: "you don't understand us Chinese".

Yes, I agree with your statement as well. As always, it is a very complex problem/situation.

[skinster]

I actually do not comment on that much, but there's little doubt that the Chinese government treats everybody equally bad, sometimes including themselves. There is no need to use some specific thing to single someone out -- I try my best to only speak what I see.

First you push the Uygher concentration camps lie and now you've gone to your boring opinion of how you hate your government. It's weird to claim China is treating everyone in China bad in a thread that shows over a decade of research from external institutions showing increasing satisfaction by the Chinese of their government, reaching above 90% today, but okay lol.

Unlike some people who just make themselves either mouthpieces of CCP blah blah blah

For someone who's completely picked a side, e.g. anti-China, you are quite the baby crying over me doing the same. I don't know why people seem shocked I defend China, it's because a) I'm on the left and b) I don't want WW3 to happen in my lifetime, thanks. You fools don't seem to think beyond a day with the dumb shit you regurgitate.

You are probably right. My point was, she's plugged into her echo chamber, so her "opinions" are on auto pilot.

I actually present articles and other stuff because I don't think my boring opinion has more value than documented realities on political issues (which are open to be viewed differently based on new realities/evidence etc.)

You should try it maybe..once, instead of your go-to ad-hom attacks.

@skinster, I'm always open for debate. Potential imperialist tendencies in China are undeniable. It would be surprising if it were otherwise. The leadership doesn't even hide it. It's part and parcel of Chinese thinking.

First you claimed China is imperialist and now you're claiming it has "potential imperialist tendencies" and that you would be surprised to find China is imperialist. Then you claim you're telepathic with Chinese leaders, but if you read what they do write and say beyond corporate media claims, you wouldn't be saying what you do.

I'm very curious about how you explain away the Tiananmen square massacre or the fact that people in China are not allowed to talk about it even today. Is that the kind of thing you approve of?

It's not me claiming this stuff or explaining anything away, since I don't go by my opinion on these type of issues like you gaggle of whiners, but from evidence revealed by Wikileaks coming from cables from the US embassy in Beijing admitting there was no bloodshed/massacre there. I'll remind you that Wikileaks today are yet to make any retractions or change position from any documents they've published. Also, you can listen to and read the things I shared and let me know which parts of these things you dispute, hopefully supporting it with something more than your opinion.

[Atlantis]

@skinster, China has always been an empire, even thousands of years before the British Empire. As any large centrally ruled political entity, it will always seek imperial expansion. That is the same for the US, UK, Russia, Turkey, etc. That is just common sense. It has nothing to do with telepathy. Numerous statements by Chinese leaders postulating Chinese global influence or the fact that China will replace the US as first global power also has nothing to do with telepathy. It's just common knowledge of any person having an average knowledge of current affairs. It beats me why anybody would want to deliberately ignore this or ignore the fact that China, under Xi's rule, has become the most repressive regime on the planet, where the mere mention of the three Ts (Tibet, Taiwan, Tiananmen) can land you in prison for a very long time.

Western delusion about China from Voltaire to the 1968 leftist radicals who marched through the streets of Europe waving Mao's little red book has a long tradition. Different from today, at least they had the excuse of a scarcity of information, which you don't have.

[Patrickov]

It beats me why anybody would want to deliberately ignore this or ignore the fact that China, under Xi's rule, has become the most repressive regime on the planet, where the mere mention of the three Ts (Tibet, Taiwan, Tiananmen) can land you in prison for a very long time.

Simple. They think themselves benefited from it or it serves their ideals.

IMHO it is sometimes more efficient to simply see those people as fundamentally evil.

[Atlantis]

Simple. They think themselves benefited from it or it serves their ideals.

Since times immemorial, people have fantasized about some distant utopia that would somehow solve all the problems of their own society. As the noble Roman ladies fantasized about the strongly built Germanic slave with their blue eyes, 19th century Europe fantasized about the "noble savages". From les lettres édifiantes et curieuses sent back by Jesuit missionaries from China, Voltaire fantasized about an enlightened meritocracy based on the bureaucracy of the celestial empire totally ignoring the atrocities of Chinese rulers that would have horrified the most hardened tyrants in the West.

Thus, people have always used far away cultures to project their ideal society onto as material proof that their dreams are more than just phantasms of the mind.

[Rancid]

Simple. They think themselves benefited from it or it serves their ideals.
IMHO it is sometimes more efficient to simply see those people as fundamentally evil.

You know, in life, be it finding someone you might marry, finding a partner to do business with, finding bandmates, finding friends, etc. etc. etc. When someone speaks in absolutes, and sees the world in hard immutable absolutes. That is a massive red flag to get away from that person. These people are toxic, and frankly dumb. It's why skinster is 1 of 2 pofoers I can say I have ZERO respect for. There are many pofoers I disagree with, but I can still respect them, because at least they try to be reasonable about shit.

Indeed, these people are evil through willful ignorance and stupidity basically. These are the exact people these regimes eventually use as useful idiots.

Ultimately, skinsters twisted position is very simple minded, which is way it's so flawed, insidious, and inconsistent. The reality of the world is more complex than her level of intelligence can understand.

Her philosophy is very simple. She sees the US as the greatest evil ever with no exceptions (of course the US has committed many evils, but this is besides the point). Everything that stands opposed to the US in anyway is therefore good, no matter how objectively horrible that opposing force is. Hence why she supports China, and many other tin pot regimes without question.

[Patrickov]

Thus, people have always used far away cultures to project their ideal society onto as material proof that their dreams are more than just phantasms of the mind.

Quoted for truth. I should take these words and reflect on myself as well.

[Atlantis]

Her philosophy is very simple. She sees the US as the greatest evil ever with no exceptions (of course the US has committed many evils, but this is besides the point). Everything that stands opposed to the US in anyway is therefore good, no matter how objectively horrible that opposing force is. Hence why she supports China, and many other tin pot regimes without question.

While I disagree with Skinster in this respect, she is right in that the US is the only actual empire. All the rest are either past empires (UK ...), wannabe empires (Russia, Turkey ... ) or potential empires (China).

Following WWII, the US decided at the highest level that it would give itself the military capability (especially nuclear) that would exceed the military forces of it's competitors by far so as to achieve world peace. The German quantum physicist Hans-Peter Dürr was shocked to hear when he studied with Edward Teller, who was a student of Heisenberg, that the US should not stop with the Hiroshima bomb, but continue to build more powerful bombs to achieve a military force twice the military force of the rest of the world put together (interview in German):

It was always very naive to believe that this would be a way of achieving permanent world peace. Since every force produces a counter force, the rise of the Soviet Union as counter force was inevitable. And even if the US had achieved the aim of overpowering military force, it would not have been used for world peace but for US domination over other nations.

Nations always have diverging interests, if one nation has the means to lord it over all others, there will not be peace.

The Chinese are already flexing their muscles by putting political and economic pressure on foreign governments, but they won't have the means to effectively establish a global empire even in a hundred years.

Therefore, the anti-imperial struggle will always first of all have to target the US.