[Fasces]

We saw this in Wuhan where the doctor who first identified covid-19 was harassed by police because bad news is not tolerated in China's system.

Ironically, it's local abuses like that that lead the Chinese to tolerate protests more than folks here would think - they increase the legitimacy of the CPC by letting the party step in and correct the problem.

Localities tend to be very unpopular among Chinese even while the Beijing government enjoys very high approval/support (it does).

[wat0n]

Most information is still available through different sources - I wouldn't call your inability to use Baidu effectively to be a point against your ability to access that information.

For a very narrow slice of information relating specifically to historical or politically sensitive topics, sure. The biggest meaningful difference in terms of freedom for an average person living in the US vs China is that in the US I could host a Twitch stream reading a book on American war crimes without risking a visit by the PSB next day (at least as long as you're not an American public school teacher!)

When's the last time you or anyone you know exercised that right, though? How big was the audience? We're approaching niche differences here - not enough to say China and the US are "incomparable", and certainly not enough for me to jump aboard the new Cold War train or that China is some unique, indescribably evil regime that threatens the West.

It's not just that, though. I'm also thinking about censorship of movies and other media, which in the US only takes the form of the age ratings (by the MPA, a private organization), the usual libel and security laws (which I assume exist in both countries, defamation and endangering national security are not acceptable) and self-censorship for commercial reasons (e.g. not wanting to offend your viewers) but doesn't edit content as far as I'm aware.

The Chinese system is more like what was in place in the US 60+ years ago, when the government did censor all sorts of media and not just for political speech. In the 1920s, many US municipalities would ban the showing of movies deemed to be immoral.

This discussion reminds of that old cold war joke;

In the USA you can criticise the president but cannot criticise your boss. In the USSR you can criticise your boss but cannot criticise the president

Changing employers is easier than moving abroad.

[Rugoz]

When's the last time you or anyone you know exercised that right, though? How big was the audience? We're approaching niche differences here - not enough to say China and the US are "incomparable", and certainly not enough for me to jump aboard the new Cold War train or that China is some unique, indescribably evil regime that threatens the West.

What a bullshit argument. Just because I rarely exercise certain rights, doesn't mean I'm not dependent on others exercising them. If my government imprisons, tortures and executes people, often for no other reason than believing the wrong things, I want to know about it. China does all of those things, as far as we know, but due to the lack of a free press, it is shrouded in secrecy.

[Fasces]

What is It with Americans and this idea of "we may do bad things but we talk about them" somehow excusing the doing bad things part?

The torture and abuse and rape that goes on in American prisons isn't less bad, in any capacity, than the torture and abuse and rape that goes on in Chinese prisons just because you're transparent about it.

[Unthinking Majority]

Ironically, it's local abuses like that that lead the Chinese to tolerate protests more than folks here would think - they increase the legitimacy of the CPC by letting the party step in and correct the problem.

Localities tend to be very unpopular among Chinese even while the Beijing government enjoys very high approval/support (it does).

What a bunch of nonsense. It's a totalitarian dictatorship. They only allow that which doesn't threaten their power. There is no accountability, there is no consent of the governed, there's no say on national policy. Mao and Xi Jinping do whatever they want. Local candidates are hand-picked by the CPC for local "elections". If a local candidate got up and spoke out about communism they would be done. They're tightening their grip in Hong Kong and they have no say. It's like being in an abusive domestic relationship where your hubby tells you what to do and to STFU or else he'll beat the crap out of you and if you tattle he'll beat the crap out of the kids too. Meanwhile you can vote out Trump or the GOP if you don't like them, and you can write a book telling Trump to suck it and you won't be arrested.

You can have a strong government with strong regulations without it being a dictatorship. If you think wealthy Chinese oligarchs don't have massive power & influence with the CPC and it isn't a terribly corrupt system you're fooling yourself.

You're only as "free" as the CPC allows you to be. There is freedom of speech until they don't like what you say. There's freedom of religion...unless you're a Tibetan buddhist, Falun Gong, or Uyghur Muslim. There's no habeas corpus, there's only legal due process "rights" so long as the CPC allow it. There are ZERO guaranteed human rights in China.

[Fasces]

[Rugoz]

What is It with Americans and this idea of "we may do bad things but we talk about them" somehow excusing the doing bad things part?

The torture and abuse and rape that goes on in American prisons isn't less bad, in any capacity, than the torture and abuse and rape that goes on in Chinese prisons just because you're transparent about it.

I'm not American so piss off with your stupid whataboutism. Torture and abuse in American prisons, to the extent it happens, isn't part of "the method" like in Chinese reeducation camps.

But that's beside the point. When you "talk about bad things", you can identify when, where and how often these things happen. And you can come up with a solution. Dictatorships always look neat and tidy from the outside. The real horror happens behind closed doors.

[AFAIK]

@wat0n "[The USA] doesn't edit content as far as I'm aware."
The US Army allows Hollywood studios to make use of its equipment in exchange for final say over the script. Despite acting as an executive producer it is never credited as such.

[wat0n]

@wat0n "[The USA] doesn't edit content as far as I'm aware."
The US Army allows Hollywood studios to make use of its equipment in exchange for final say over the script. Despite acting as an executive producer it is never credited as such.

That's not censorship though.

If the studios don't want to use its equipment, there's always CGI. If anything I find it reasonable for the Army to make demands in exchange for using taxpayer funded equipment.

[AFAIK]

So you're ok with co-option but not coercion?

The censorship occurs in the editing room when you can't cut clunky scenes with redundant dialogue because you're contractually obligated to do as you're paid to do. Or it can be more subtle like not wanting to upset your sponsor or not wanting to get a reputation for being difficult to work with.

[wat0n]

So you're ok with co-option but not coercion?

The censorship occurs in the editing room when you can't cut clunky scenes with redundant dialogue because you're contractually obligated to do as you're paid to do. Or it can be more subtle like not wanting to upset your sponsor or not wanting to get a reputation for being difficult to work with.

Yep, cooption is acceptable in my book.

Nobody forces you to request army gear for a movie.

[Istanbuller]

The West is better than China in terms of human rights.

That was the case when classical liberalism/ libertarianism/ American conservatism was in power in the West.

The West is no longer the bastion of freedom and capitalism. It is for statism, socialism and fascism now.