Do you know debt from deficit? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Everything from personal credit card debt to government borrowing debt.

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#14058791
Oh my goodness this is the best quote:
Daily Telegraph, 'Mentally ill to be allowed to become MPs, serve on juries and be company directors', 14 Sep 2012 wrote:Mr Clegg said: "It's ludicrous in this day and age that a person can't contribute to public life if they’ve had issues with their mental health.

"Discrimination like this has no place in modern society and it is right that these rules are repealed. These long overdue reforms will send out a positive message that the stigmatisation of people who have mental health problems should not be tolerated."

Being institutionalised for more than six months, is only a small problem now? :lol: :*(

This is truly surreal.
#14058861
Otebo wrote:Well Parliament yesterday voted to allow the mentally ill to become MPs and company directors. I don't think a joke is even required on that one.



In the words of Ian Dury "It's nice to be a lunatic". people are trying to have it both ways - first they say Directors are evil geniuses stealing all the money from the people - then they say they are incompetent crazies.

Same bag in the US - if you hate a class of people you just hit em with everything even if the attacks are contradictory

ok the UK will not go broke because it can always pay its creditors by turning the printing press
Yes, Interest rates will rise in response to the printing and that I why I have a double short on US Treasuries

..as far as the accusation of me being a dirty capitalist is concerned, I funnel the gains to my daughter (single mother) and grandchildren in the North of England, and so that is a form or redistribution of wealth from American Treasury bond holders (Dick Cheney ?) , to my family in England. Or, because that reduces her needs, a distribution from US bond holders to the UK tax payer who's burden is relieved. Or a distribution from US bond holders to the Pakistani corner shop owner who sells her ciggies... and so on

A real capitalist would put it in Swiss/Cayman Islands bank accounts and buy his wife a dancing horse (eg Willard Romney)

Putting the number of people who could even attempt to grasp this stuff at 10% is about right - the percentage who could pass the 11+ exam and then go on to college when I was a kid demonstrates that. A glance at all the superstition and fortune cookies on FBook also shows it.

How many people in the UK can name the prime minister ? The minority.
#14058922
Someneck wrote:ok the UK will not go broke because it can always pay its creditors by turning the printing press.


How do the examples of the Weimar Republic and Zimbabwe fit into this appraisal?

Even if you have an infinite amount of worthless currency, you are still broke.
At this point, no one will use your currency anymore. They will just use someone elses.

The value of any currency is measured by the goods and services you can redeem for it and not the number written on the note.
#14058933
Baff wrote:
How do the examples of the Weimar Republic and Zimbabwe fit into this appraisal?

Even if you have an infinite amount of worthless currency, you are still broke.
At this point, no one will use your currency anymore. They will just use someone elses.

The value of any currency is measured by the goods and services you can redeem for it and not the number written on the note.



I am not saying there are no effects to printing money - I am saying that defaulting on loans is impossible

Broke (to me) means unable to pay the country's debts - and that cannot happen as the idiot creditors have their assets denominated in the currency.

When the EU - USA - UK are all printing money, then there are no credible currencies to buy and hard assets are the way to go

In the 1970's when inflation was 20% and I was getting pay raises every 3 months, I bought canned food, toilet rolls, 2 years supply of dry goods of all sorts - and of course houses

Inflation is the only possible outcome of what is happening (before or after the next recession) - instead of buying hard assets, I am shorting the value of government bonds. Of course the the gov could chose to de-print money as the recession lifts - but we know what happens then... so no.... inflation it is. Inflation in the UK has an 18 month lag and so when it appears, it will be unstoppable in the medium term

It's amusing that the Brits think it is only their country and their politicians who are printing money - the EU and US are churning out immense amounts

Anyway, nothing has happened yet - I was traveling in the UK last week and people were spending like crazy and house prices were still sky high.

No food parcels required
#14058936
I am not saying there are no effects to printing money - I am saying that defaulting on loans is impossible


Sure, but the problem is, if you devalue your money so heavily, no one will ever want to buy any bonds from you in the future because they know you will not pay anything back! You are screwing your long term ability to fund true investments with bonds. Printing indiscriminately is not good for the long term success of a nation. It's insane to believe this is ok.
#14058937
Devaluing your currency is defaulting on your loans.

You will be paying back less goods and services than you borrowed.
Investors aren't stupid.


As Rancid rightly points out, your credit rating will be affected by this if you do it.

Inflation is another way of devaluing your debts. (Or defaulting on your loans if you prefer). Likewise this will affect your credit rating.


The US the EU, China and UK are all on a race to the bottom currently, he who devalues most has the better opportunity to sell the others it's exports, repay less of it's debts.

To start with that the EU was not printing money, gave the UK the advantage. Now that the EU is doing it too, that advantage is over.
#14058941
Rancid wrote:
Sure, but the problem is, if you devalue your money so heavily, no one will ever want to buy any bonds from you in the future because they know you will not pay anything back! You are screwing your long term ability to fund true investments with bonds. Printing indiscriminately is not good for the long term success of a nation. It's insane to believe this is ok.



Au contraire - the US has been printing truck loads of dollars for years

the result ?

US Treasury bonds are sky high with tiny interest rates...hum how's that Mr Paul ?

Only Ron Paul and a few more eccentrics that you might find in the local library chuntering away with nervous ticks thinks that currencies are going to zero

They will inflate and devalue against ? against what ? They are ALL doing it

..and they will only inflate if there is demand.. and there isn't..every time prices go up, people stop buying - so less demand

After 4 years of printing money, hard assets like houses are DOWN

No demand.

It's easing now so inflation is expected and I am in front of it

Bought gold 4 weeks ago, shorted Treasuries, buying another house at the bottom of the mkt


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlAdUY4HUF8

.
#14058945
No offense mate but the moment the EU looks like a strong economy again, all that is going to change.

The recent near collapse of the Euro is why there has been a rush to America/Britain.


Put simply, they think the Euro has a high chance of failing long before the USD does.


If the Euro stabilises, that situation will reverse.
The capital will fly the other way sooner or later.
America and the UK have had a lucky grace period to sort their economies out, but neither have.
#14058969
Baff wrote:No offense mate but the moment the EU looks like a strong economy again, all that is going to change.

The recent near collapse of the Euro is why there has been a rush to America/Britain.


Put simply, they think the Euro has a high chance of failing long before the USD does.


If the Euro stabilises, that situation will reverse.
The capital will fly the other way sooner or later.
America and the UK have had a lucky grace period to sort their economies out, but neither have.



Its happening now - I have been buying German companies for months - I am up HUGE this last couple of weeks - 25% on average

The companies do great and the public suffer - same in the US- they are all strutting around saying they are the richest people on earth when tens of millions are on food stamps/out of work - but the companies are making all time record high profits

When we talk about economic effects , we first have to ask - on whom ?

I am sat here retired and sharing in the stock mkt boom and with index linked pensions - so the tax take in Greece is as relevant to me as the condition of Donald Trump's wig

My daughter is working shifts including weekends in Yorkshire and getting minimum wage...

This is what Margaret meant when she said 'no such thing as society"
#14058972
Rancid wrote:So, what about GReece then.



I have been there - nice cheese - small 2 inch toilet pipes so you have to put the toilet paper in bins

Think Germany - the more I learn about Germany, the more I think it is the role model for all Western countries
#14058987
Rancid wrote:I agree on the German model thing.



You would agree on the toilet pipes too if you went to Greece

Big bin in the bathroom full of drying crap

I never went back

The EU should have had a mason dixon line ...and made a rule that no country with toilet pipes less than 4 inches diameter or waist high pissoires in the street could be admitted - actually the latter would have excluded France so exemption required

That would have sorted the wheat from the chaf

First time I went to Calais with the wife and kids, we sat on a bench in the main street eating a sandwich and a guy was using a waist high pissoire 3 feet away and grinning at us with no front teeth

simply not done old fruit !
#14058993
Rancid wrote:You're all over the place and not making sense.

That's what I told him...

The thrust of my message is that underdeveloped countries as evidenced by inadequate sanitation arrangements should not have been admitted into the EU

Nice toilet = nice bank account

A French pissoir ..

Image
#14059467
Someneck wrote:
I am sat here retired and sharing in the stock mkt boom and with index linked pensions - so the tax take in Greece is as relevant to me as the condition of Donald Trump's wig

My daughter is working shifts including weekends in Yorkshire and getting minimum wage...

This is what Margaret meant when she said 'no such thing as society"


Margaret meant for you to invest in your daughter in preference to random strangers.
It's hardly Mrs Thatchers fault if you don't love her enough to want to, or if you don't priortitse your own daughters wealth above others.
Last edited by Baff on 16 Sep 2012 14:11, edited 1 time in total.
#14059469
Rancid wrote:I agree on the German model thing.

So did Hitler.

But the German model only works best for Germans.
To apply a one sized fits all solution to other societies is asking for problems.

Especially if you base that model on an extreme fringe from within the set rather than a median one.

Trying to apply the Germany model to the entire EU economy for example has just resulted in an almighty crash.
As predicted.

Even with the French model I would expect better results for the EU.
#14059513
Baff wrote:So did Hitler.

But the German model only works best for Germans.
To apply a one sized fits all solution to other societies is asking for problems.

Especially if you base that model on an extreme fringe from within the set rather than a median one.

Trying to apply the Germany model to the entire EU economy for example has just resulted in an almighty crash.
As predicted.

Even with the French model I would expect better results for the EU.


The exact opposite is the case:

It is the failure of places like Greece to apply the German model that has caused all the problems

The Germans pay their taxes and play by the rules. They train their workers and insist on high standards. They have tight financial discipline

To blame the Germans for the disgraceful behavior of the southern fringe is like blaming a householder for having a nice telly which then tempted a thief to burgle his house

We were all laughing at places like Italy and their huge denominated lira notes well before the Euro and well before the EEC even

The Germans have been the island of sanity throughout all this

I once went on my motorbike from Leeds to Yugoslavia and passing over the border from Austria to Italy, I was struck by the contrast between beautifully maintained houses and gardens, to burned out cars and dead dogs and lazy fatties in string vests on the Italian side - and all within 400 yards !

Try going from Monte Carlo to Italy and its the same thing - the slums of Ventimiglia a few miles away are a disgrace

If the German model of economics and social arrangements was used throughout Europe and in the UK and in the USA, we would all be much better off

Am I biased ? well the Germans killed my grandad but I was a Company Director in Germany - so I guess I come from a neutral position
#14059614
Someneck wrote:
The exact opposite is the case:

It is the failure of places like Greece to apply the German model that has caused all the problems


Not by my way of thinking.

By my way of thinking it was the failure of planners to expect the Greeks to behave like Germans. That was the problem.
The ludicrous conceit that they would all become model Germans just to please some eurocrats vision of Utopia beggars all belief.

Greece can't become Germany.
It's Greece.

Nothing will change that.
It's geogrpahy, it's history and it's society all conspire to prevent Greece from ever becoming Germany.
It cannot happen and for anyone to make a plan expecting not only Greece to become Germany but every other country in the EU to become Germany is mindblowing in the obviousness of both it's stupidity and it's destiny to fail.

Socieities have evolved to where they are because that is the most successful way of living for them. If an Inuit adopted "the German Model", would Inuits become as rich as Germans?
No. they wouldn't.
Oh that life was so simple that if we all did as the Germans do we could all have the same wealth and opportunities as each other.
#14059623
Baff wrote:
Not by my way of thinking.

By my way of thinking it was the failure of planners to expect the Greeks to behave like Germans. That was the problem.
The ludicrous conceit that they would all become model Germans just to please some eurocrats vision of Utopia beggars all belief.

Greece can't become Germany.
It's Greece.

Nothing will change that.
It's geogrpahy, it's history and it's society all conspire to prevent Greece from ever becoming Germany.
It cannot happen and for anyone to make a plan expecting not only Greece to become Germany but every other country in the EU to become Germany is mindblowing in the obviousness of both it's stupidity and it's destiny to fail.

Socieities have evolved to where they are because that is the most successful way of living for them. If an Inuit adopted "the German Model", would Inuits become as rich as Germans?
No. they wouldn't.
Oh that life was so simple that if we all did as the Germans do we could all have the same wealth and opportunities as each other.


I agree that Brussels was overly optimistic in expecting the southern rim to obey the rules, but in fact it has worked out well for Germany - holding down the exchange rate in order to give their industries super profitability

perhaps that was the plot all along... nah that's a conspiracy theory and I don't do those

Seeing as all these nationalities behave like americans once they come to America, there is no reason why they cant act like Germans when they are in Greece or wherever.

Look at England - absolutely unrecognizable from 1960. The sharp practice of utility companies etc would have had them publicly beaten in 1960 - now its normal and they out-capitalist the capitalists in the USA. The US feels consumer benign compared to the raging capitalism of the UK in 2012.

It shows that the national psyche can change - for better or worse.

One margatera thatcheropolous and it could change in greece too
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