[Demosthenes]

So, I'm doing quite a lot of bread baking using whole grain ingredients. Be clear, I buy the whole grains in bulk, mill it myself, add a few small things to make the dough workable and Viola: Bread of all sorts.

As of this moment, I have only made sandwich bread using hard red and white wheat, spelt pancakes, and couple things using oat groats, and barley berries.

I usually add a generous amount (1/2 cup...erm...I'm not sure the grams in that, 10 maybe?) of milled flax seed for fiber, healthy oils, and your odd vitamin or two as well.

I am looking into a bread slicer, a bread proofer, and a larger 6 qt (no idea about liters there) mixing bowl.

Also, in the middle of this I was told by a new quack doctor I have, my old doc was transferred out, that diabetics are not to ever eat wheat... ever. I explained the high fiber concept that every other medical professional I ever talked too endorsed and he laughed it off entirely saying I should eat a high protein diet. I didn't mention that freshly milled whole wheat has a fair amount of protein already. In fairness he also told me not to ever eat potatoes, which I conceded.

So, what do you know about bread making? What do you know about bread and diabetes? I know a fair amount. I know you have to eat carbs no matter what, and eating whole grain, high fiber goodness is a big plus in that regard.

[MissTNT]

I don't make my own breads because I just work to freaking much right now, but I wish I could. I do know from my days back in Utah that every good Mormon, bread making housewife with 4 or more kids has a KitchenAid mixer with a large bowl a bread mixing hook. It's a smaller version of the Hobart mixers we used at Pizza Hut. I always thought setting the oven on very low was a good proofer. I don't think I'd waste the money or space unless you want to make different breads all at once. Of course, if you have the money, space and interest, then it isn't a waste, is it? Good luck. I look forward to hearing more about your adventures in bread making.

[Figlio di Moros]

Can you explain the "fiber concept", and are you taking into account the difference between soluble and insoluble fibers?

It sounds like the new doc is concerned with glycemic load; intact whole wheat has a "low glycemic index" (which I think the upper limit is set too high), but would still have a lot of carbs, adding to the overall glycemic load. I can't say what your bread's GI or carb load is, but I would suggest switching to quinoa, flaxseed, almond, or coconut flour, if it's in your budget. There might be concerns with the gluten content, as well, but the concept of gluten as inherently bad is more controversial, though celiacs disease and gluten sensitivity is highly under-diagnosed in the US.

I have to ask, are you a type I or type II diabetic? While they're the same in effect, I know the underlying causes (beta-cell die off v. insulin resistance) are quite different. I've heard low-carb diets can help treat both, type II to a greater extent. I'm not sure I've ever heard diabetics need high carb content, though; for type II's, it's what caused insulin resistance to begin with.

[Demosthenes]

has a KitchenAid mixer with a large bowl a bread mixing hook. It's a smaller version of the Hobart mixers we used at Pizza Hut. I always thought setting the oven on very low was a good proofer.

We have a 4 qt mixer at the moment, and it's just not big enough. I know the Hobart well, and that's just the style I had in mind. I worked at a couple Pizza Huts myself in my teenage years, one in Phoenix and one here. The oven doesn't work very well for me. I have to set it at 120 to get it to come on, and that just a tad too hot.

Of course, if you have the money, space and interest, then it isn't a waste, is it?

We've got the money. It's no biggie.

I'm a little disheartened at the moment because I'm not getting reliable rises out of the dough. I bought gluten, dough conditioner, and lecithin at the Amish store nearby, but even these have not helped me. Basically, after the first rise the dough crashes and when baked is like eating a mushy rock. Far too dense. It does taste good though, but you'd never eat it on a sandwhich or the like.

Can you explain the "fiber concept", and are you taking into account the difference between soluble and insoluble fibers?

I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain. High fiber anything, either soluble or insoluble slows down the absorption of carbs. To steal a phrase, they're "slow carbs". Not like the white carbs most people eat regularly.

It sounds like the new doc is concerned with glycemic load; intact whole wheat has a "low glycemic index" (which I think the upper limit is set too high), but would still have a lot of carbs, adding to the overall glycemic load.

Yeah, but that's nothing new. My old doc was too.

I would suggest switching to quinoa, flaxseed, almond, or coconut flour, if it's in your budget.

I usually add a generous amount (1/2 cup...erm...I'm not sure the grams in that, 10 maybe?) of milled flax seed for fiber, healthy oils, and your odd vitamin or two as well.

I have a wide variety of grains to use including quinoa, I don't use non-grain flours.

I'm not sure I've ever heard diabetics need high carb content, though; for type II's, it's what caused insulin resistance to begin with.

I'm type II. All the men in family have developed it, even those with a reasonable BMI. Well, still a tad high, but not even into the obese range. Its rather frustrating. Anyway, I didn't say anything about any high carb diet, that would be suicide. I said, I'm optimizing (or meant to say) my carb intake by milling, and baking my own whole grain, high fiber breads. I use the flour the day I mill to ensure less breakdown of the water soluble vitamins. But, I'm not going to try and get more than 50 gr. of protein in a day. That's not any better than getting too much of anything else.

[The Clockwork Rat]

I've made bread a few times, taking from my dad's technique. Making a workable dough usually hasn't been the problem - I've never had to revert to additives such as vitamins, conditioner or lecithin - but getting the timing in the oven has been. Successful batches for me have been baked at as high a temperature as the oven will allow (around 230C) and have had very rapid turnovers.

Where do you allow the dough to rise, and for how long?

[Demosthenes]

Making a workable dough usually hasn't been the problem

I can make anything with plain ole' white flour. Remember, the issue is, whole grain, freshly milled flour.

I've never had to revert to additives such as vitamins, conditioner or lecithin

see above.

Where do you allow the dough to rise, and for how long?

An hour or so for the first rise in an oven set for 120 F

[The Clockwork Rat]

Woah. So far as my bread-making knowledge goes, that's your problem. Aren't you forcing the yeast too hard? I'd leave it to prove for a couple of hours (at least) at room temperature.

[Figlio di Moros]

I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain. High fiber anything, either soluble or insoluble slows down the absorption of carbs. To steal a phrase, they're "slow carbs". Not like the white carbs most people eat regularly.

There's a difference between insoluble and soluble, but I'd have to look it up again to remember the specifics.

I would suggest switching to quinoa, flaxseed, almond, or coconut flour, if it's in your budget.

I usually add a generous amount (1/2 cup...erm...I'm not sure the grams in that, 10 maybe?) of milled flax seed for fiber, healthy oils, and your odd vitamin or two as well.

I have a wide variety of grains to use including quinoa, I don't use non-grain flours.

Ah, my mistake, I missed that- non-grain flours not your cup of tea?

[Demosthenes]

There's a difference between insoluble and soluble, but I'd have to look it up again to remember the specifics.

In terms of absorption?

Ah, my mistake, I missed that- non-grain flours not your cup of tea?

Its a one thing at a time kind of thing. Grains store forever if they aren't milled. I don't know how to mill coconut or almonds into flour. Maybe eventually...

Woah. So far as my bread-making knowledge goes, that's your problem. Aren't you forcing the yeast too hard? I'd leave it to prove for a couple of hours (at least) at room temperature.

Kinda what I've been afraid of, which is why I was pondering a bread proofer...

[The Clockwork Rat]

You really shouldn't need to buy anything for making bread. When it comes to getting the right temperature for proofing it's cheap and simple just to know your own house, i.e. where the hot and cold spots are. If you have central heating, leave the dough 1-2 feet from a radiator in a bowl with a damp cloth draped over the top. Check up on it a few times to see how fast it rises, and eventually you'll probably know well enough how long to leave it to just forget about it for a while.

[Figlio di Moros]

Its a one thing at a time kind of thing. Grains store forever if they aren't milled. I don't know how to mill coconut or almonds into flour. Maybe eventually...

With nuts, you want to smash and roast them first, otherwise the oils will bind up in a grinder (I think mills bind up easier, right?). One good advantage, though, is that excess grounds can be used to make a sort of coffee as well, as can dandelion root.

Grinding coconuts, on the other hand, I'd have no idea of. I know you can buy it, which means you can mill it. I'll have to check out a non-existant forum I've never heard of and don't ever visit to see how some of the people that would be there do it.

[The Clockwork Rat]

I asked my dad about putting bread in the oven at 120F and he agreed that that is far too hot. There's absolutely no need to try to speed up the rise; leaving it overnight in a fairly cool area will give far better results.

I think part of the reason is that too fast a rise breaks the gluten bonds that hold the bread together.

[Nattering Nabob]

twice as much liquid as flour...the liquids can be water, milk, oil, whatever liquid you want...

Add yeast, liquid, a couple tablespoons of sugar, salt if you like (I leave out salt), into a large bowl and mix with a very sturdy spoon until the liquids have been absorbed by the flour...

oil up your hands and then knead the dough on an oiled surface...the oil is to keep it from sticking to everything...you may need to re-oil everything periodically...

Knead until the dough is gooey and shiney (that's the gluten)...is dough too gooey and soft? Add more flour; adding more flour is easy but adding more liquid is near impossible..

Warm up the oven for a minute or two, turn the oven off, and open the door to let most of the heat out until it is warm (not hot) and let the dough rise on a pan in the oven...

Let rise for about 30-40 minutes, shape, let rise for another 30 or so minutes, and bake to taste...

Demo...looks like you have the economics down, your bread should be very cheap to make...the yeast is probably the most expensive part of your operation but you can grow your own yeast cultures instead of buying them to save even more...

Pizza crust...calzones...pot pies...you can add onions, cheese, raisins, anything you want...

You can save batches of uncooked dough in the freezer until needed...

I've used the same technique with 100% whole wheat flour...

Making your own bread is the beginning of freedom...

[Demosthenes]

I asked my dad about putting bread in the oven at 120F and he agreed that that is far too hot. There's absolutely no need to try to speed up the rise; leaving it overnight in a fairly cool area will give far better results.

I think part of the reason is that too fast a rise breaks the gluten bonds that hold the bread together.

I'm not trying to speed anything up man, you've gotten the wrong impression. The issue is that the oven doesn't come on until I turn it to 120 F. I tried at 110 first and it simply didn't go anything. It's a Jenn-Air that came with the house, and its digital. I hate it.

I'll have to check out a non-existant forum I've never heard of and don't ever visit to see how some of the people that would be there do it.

I wonder what kind of forum that might be?

Making your own bread is the beginning of freedom...

So I'm noticing.

[Figlio di Moros]

I wonder what kind of forum that might be?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz4AMa9dUd

How do I prevent this from being called a one liner? I guess by doing this.

[MissTNT]

IIRC, the proofers were set at 85 degrees. I do remember I could stand in them to warm myself up and not cook to death. I also slept in the walkin once when I was pregnant and didn't have an Air Conditioner in my house, but that's not relative to the conversation now is it?

Did you ever get "mixer hypnosis", Demo, when you worked at Pizza Hut? I don't know how many times I had to break my crew away from staring at the mixer. 3 or 4 would be standing there just watching it go round and round. Would be a great treatment for high blood pressure I believe.

Anyhoo, checked with a friend and she said she does her bread making in conjunction with laundry and rises her bread in the laundry room once the dryer gets going. Depending on where your laundry is done and the ventilation, could work.

[The Clockwork Rat]

I'm not trying to speed anything up man, you've gotten the wrong impression. The issue is that the oven doesn't come on until I turn it to 120 F. I tried at 110 first and it simply didn't go anything. It's a Jenn-Air that came with the house, and its digital. I hate it.

Even so, that's too hot. Barely over room temperature should do, so just plonk it near a radiator or stove.

[Demosthenes]

Even so, that's too hot. Barely over room temperature should do, so just plonk it near a radiator or stove.

I don't have anything like that. We have radiant floor heat in the house, everything is measured and even and we keep it cool. However, the dryer thing above is a possibility.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Fine, leave it on the floor!

[Demosthenes]

Or I can just buy the damn proofer! The Amish ladies swear by it so I believe them over a British e-person anyway!