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By mikema63
Besides the obvious revolution bit and any speculation about how exactly you'd run things of course.

How are you guys going to go from here and now and organize into a larger political movement in the west? What little I've seen of communists irl have honestly been kind of either pathetic in terms of organization. You guys are also incomprehensibly fractured.

What are your next few steps?

Any form of communist movement in the West would have to make sure to not call itself a communist movement. It should focus on gradual change through the de-legitimization of currency and the refining of it's alternatives while simultaneously strengthening not central, but local government country over their respective provinces.
Why would we tell someone like you who just tried to get a fascist elected to the most powerful presidency in the entire world? You are part of the far right machine. If we did ever stand a chance at power again it would be people like you would be killing us and our families just like the CIA did in Chile and Indonesia.
The unsexy work of education. This includes agitation and education at the most basic level.

At a bigger level, it’s organizing labour. Unions most obviously, but from the very bottom showing that labour can, and should, be running their own affairs.
mikema63 wrote:How are you guys going to go from here and now and organize into a larger political movement in the west? What little I've seen of communists irl have honestly been kind of either pathetic in terms of organization. You guys are also incomprehensibly fractured.

You sound like a cop.

I'm with Decky, don't tell mike anything.
mikema63 wrote:Besides the obvious revolution bit and any speculation about how exactly you'd run things of course.

How are you guys going to go from here and now and organize into a larger political movement in the west? What little I've seen of communists irl have honestly been kind of either pathetic in terms of organization. You guys are also incomprehensibly fractured.

What are your next few steps?

So how well does being an informant for the FBI pay?
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By m21
The game plan is obviously to build a revolutionary party by intervening in the current class struggle and infusing socialist theory into left-wing mass movements. Also there is obviously no way you can stop this.
So how well does being an informant for the FBI pay?

Starts at 80 k but you can get to 120 k in a few years. :excited:

Also there is obviously no way you can stop this.

And you say this because?
I wonder how many people plotting to overthrow the government are taking a cheque (salary or welfare) from that same government? @mikema63 could you add that question to your information gathering operation? In interests of efficiency it doesn't make sense to pay the opposition. Though I suppose a funded opposition is a controlled opposition, so there is that. :)
We're Ignorant vessels of energy shipwrecked on an island of conceit

mikema63 wrote: You guys are also incomprehensibly fractured.
Humanity is incomprehensibly fractured, because we're 'image makers,' trying to 'make sense' of an incomprehensible-incompressible happening. Most of our problems stem from miscommunication while our solutions stem from communication. Communication is tactile, be it sight, sound, smell, or taste- stimuli or any form of experience will always touch the sensorium. Unfortunately, the morphological amplification of tribal organization (as a side-effect of evolution) forces us to live through cognitive images. Cognitive images tend to be patterns of information distilled and filtered for perceptional rationale. All modes of human action and interaction rely on personal or tribal articulations of experience, yet each mode of action or cognitive image system (perceptional rationale) operates under the evolutionary law of biological competition; creating a conflict of the species through fragmentary states of tribal awareness (hence the externalization of abstract nation states, borders, laws, culture, etc). As long as we're trying to imprint our small-minded and limited patterns of perception upon each other, miscommunication shall prevail over communication. Secrecy itself is a profane tool, because secrecy is a form of miscommunication. If we could live through REAL or transparent sensation, ideology-dogma and other forms of curtailed awareness would cease to exist. Roleplayers need to stop perpetuating images/myths and playing political Dungeons and Dragons, and learn to love as 'naked' human beings. The world is a dangerous place because of miscommunication.

Causality as Making the New

What Western philosophers, right, left, and center, have continued to ignore is that matching the old excludes making the new. Concepts always follow percepts. In fact they are a kind of ossification of percepts- endlessly repeated percepts which frequently obscure invention and innovation.

The entire obsession of our age with 'existentialism' has been based on the awareness that concept is not percept. One can have numerous classifications that do not correspond to one's actual experience. We are often smothered in images of ourselves and of others that do not correspond to 'presences.' The Western world has built up a vast apparatus of classifications as a means of controlling and harmonizing experience. These have tended to be colossal systems of concepts which prevent us from direct encounter with ourselves and our world: they constitute the 'rear-view mirror.' But 'existentialism' pushed to extreme as a figure loses touch with the ground of existence itself.

The Renaissance made a clean sweep of the vast methodologies and dialectics of scholastic disputation. Today, we are making a clean sweep of all the merely private points of view achieved through five centuries of intense individualism. Inevitably, in these cathartic conditions, many babies are thrown out with little bath water. Enormous destruction seems to accompany such periods of discovery and innovation. The ordinary flood of effects that pour from ill-conceived courses of action swamp perception.

Scientific 'objectivity,' like Othello's 'ocular proof,' is an optical illusion of truth. The testimony of the blind Frenchman Jacques Lusseyran is relevant here:

When I came across the myth of objectivity in certain modern writers, it made me angry. So there was only one world for these people, the same for everyone. And all the other worlds were to be counted as illusions left over from the past. Or why not call them by their name- hallucinations? I had to learn to my cost how wrong they were.

From my experience I knew that it was enough to take from a man a memory here, an association there, to deprive him of hearing or sight, for the world to undergo immediate transformation, and for another world, entirely different but entirely coherent to be born. Another world? Not really. the same world, rather, but seen from another angle, and counted in entirely new measures. When this happened, all the hierarchies they called objective were turned upside down, scattered to the four winds, not even like theories but like whims.

'Objectivity' is achieved by matching new observations with old concepts by specialist observers doubly isolated from existence by abstract Nature on the one hand, and controlled laboratory environments on the other. No dog from the streets will behave in accordance with the stimulus-response figures of 'conditioned reflexes' until conditioned by a Pavlovian ground. The laboratory is the hidden environment of effects that make the causes possible.

Hollow-sin-nations... Hallucinations make sense to a man drugged by his own perceptions.

Thank you for your time and attention.

Sivad wrote:My game plan is shit kicking. I'm going to keep kicking shit until the whole establishment edifice is completely discredited.
Such a juvenile struggle. You will become that which you sought to discredit.

Are you a convert or convict, imprisoned by convictions?
Last edited by RhetoricThug on 13 Nov 2017 17:43, edited 2 times in total.
Creating alliances between socialists and other groups dealing with the business end of capitlaism, specifically indigenous groups fighting modern day colonialism.

Supporting women in the working class by facilitating their inclusion in the unions, and this (unfortunately) requires a certain amount of edication in 5erms of sexual assault and sexual harassment, especially in certain trades.

Unifying the working class so that there is no longer any sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, or other bigotry dividing us.

Getting academics to do real concrete analysis that helps the rest of us work more realistically and more effectively.

And building sustainable buildings for communities who want to live independent of the capitalist system.

But this is all what needs to be done in my neck of the woods. Your material conditions may vary.
By RhetoricThug
Why assume one must have a plan to play the game we call life? Humans need to let go of pathological politics. When you invent an end and fight over means to achieve that end, you end up giving up your life to an illusion. Nature doesn't produce conclusions, life is a process. Life itself has a plan in place for you, and you're just a finite fragment of its infinite consciousness helping a homesick cosmic happening go along to get along. Humans hallucinate purpose. The Greeks had a game plan, The Romans had a game plan, The Egyptians had a game plan, Nazi Germany had a game plan, Iroquois, Soviet Union, British Empire, Persians, Japan, Spanish, Mayans had a game plan... But you see, Nature doesn't produce conclusions. I wonder, did Methuselah, the bristlepine cone tree, have a game plan?
I believe that the only way to have a socialist revolution in the United States (and the west in general) is to unite working class whites with racial and social minorities. This is very hard to do - the liberals in high places divert the energy of the minorities into unproductive avenues while the right-wingers whip the working class whites into an absolute reactionary frenzy. And it behooves the establishment to keep the working class whites - a plurality - separate and distinct from the rest of the underclasses.

The left, the actual left, simply must change their approach to ID politics. You cannot leave out class element that speaks to people across all working class lines - you can and should go after racial injustice....but never forget the problem. A very good example of ID politics done correctly was the Black Panther movement in the 60s. A very bad example is the current application privilege theory. You cannot come at social justice from a reformist perspective. It doesn't do us any good. What we have now is tantamount to plantation owners sweet talking the field slaves while they shit all over them, and then stick their fingers into the faces of house slaves, telling them how much more privileged they are than the field slaves. Yea, it may be true...but f*ck those slave owning pieces of shit. The left has been usurped by the neo-liberal establishment, and if you want revolution in this country - we have to take the conch back...we have to come at it with a unifying, class-centered message in everything we do. Whatever we do - combating racism...speak class. Combating sexism...speak class. Combating religious intolerance...speak class. Combating the rich and powerful...speak class. Combating the economic hard-shapes faced by rural whites...speak class.

There is no fixing this. There is no reforming this. It's rotten to the core and the core is what we must always focus upon. You want to stop injustice? Unite the workers. Overthrow capitalism. This fact held true 100 years ago and it holds true today.
I agree with everything you've said, @LeftNationalist. The problem with liberals and social justice is that the things bringing down the working class from inequality, intolerance, discrimination, sexism, to racism are all symptoms of capitalism. Liberal reforms cannot "fix" a system that is fundamentally built upon inequality of class, between people who have and those who do not. Even the least malignant form of capitalism we have, a social democratic one, will never be able to rid itself of those forms of inequality and discrimination because capitalism as a system necessitates inequality and a divide between people. That is part and parcel of capitalism, and fundamentally cannot be removed, ever.

The problem is there just aren't any real socialist or communist organizations in America that both have realized that, and have any small meaningful voice even on the internet. CPUSA, despite posting Marxist material, is indistinguishable from liberal groups that support the status quo of capitalism.

So yes, as some of us have been saying here for years, you are quite correct about identity politics and the approach socialists and communists need to take. It's important to acknowledge those concerns (because most people are not Marxists), while making it clear that the answer is class solidarity. You can't work on solving those problems in any meaningful manner if capitalism has not been overthrown.

Social justice, equality of the sexes, racial tolerance should all be talking points of a Marxist platform in America, but the answer is unequivocally class solidarity.
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