[HoniSoit]

I am interested what people think about socialist groups internally investigating an allegation of crimes like rape raised by one member against another. For those familiar with far left politics, I am alluding to the SWP case. I am specifically interested to know whether it makes sense to internally investigate it instead of referring to the police.

[The Clockwork Rat]

First of all, anyone commenting on this case needs to bear in mind that most of what we have heard is hearsay.

That being said, I don't believe the SWP currently has the maturity to deal with sexual abuse cases any more than the state's police. From what I have read, the panel in the internal inquiry was asking entirely inappropriate questions, and were frankly a fucking embarrassment to the Left.

Still, we should not discount the possibility that the SWP will learn from this incident. A well organised revolutionary party has greater potential to investigate sexual abuse cases effectively than does the state's police. This is because the contradictions between bourgeois law and sexual justice do not exist.

On the other hand (there are many hands), until there is a revolutionary society the ability of revolutionary parties to enact justice will be severely limited due to still being under the eye of the bourgeois legal system; no punishments can legally be carried out, whether they be financial, incarceration, corporal or capital. There is the possibility of attempting rehabilitative therapy on those found guilty, but even as a feminist my ability to know whether female victims would find this acceptable is limited or non-existent. Again, the potential is there, but only the potential.

[Goldberk]

I don't believe the SWP currently has the maturity to deal with sexual abuse cases any more than the state's police.

I agree but more so the problem is a structural and ideological one, the SWP as a leninist vanguardist party is hierarchal and patriarchal, so it is unable to adequately deal with sexual violence that has a structural cause.

Still, we should not discount the possibility that the SWP will learn from this incident

My experience of the SWP would suggest they are incapable of reflection.

This is because the contradictions between bourgeois law and sexual justice do not exist.

They do if the revolutionary party structurally resembles the bourgeois system.

[Soixante-Retard]

I am specifically interested to know whether it makes sense to internally investigate it instead of referring to the police.

Rape should always be reported to the police. No one is above or beyond the law.

[The Clockwork Rat]

They do if the revolutionary party structurally resembles the bourgeois system.

There's not the same inherent bourgeois nature is what I'm getting at. Realistically, there is a greater scope for improvement within the SWP than the police.

Now you say that the SWP hasn't learned from its mistakes in the past, but how many crises has it experienced on this scale? This appears to seriously jeopardise their ability to recruit female members, further reducing their credibility within the Left.

Rape should always be reported to the police. No one is above or beyond the law.

That is an entirely pointless statement within the context of this thread. Congratulations.

[Rich]

No one is above or beyond the law.

What do you mean by the law? The Jewish Torah? Natural Law? What was the law in Mao's cultural revolution? Was no one above the law in Saddam's Iraq, Hitler's Germany, or Chavis's Venezuala? You seem to be conflating British statutes and rulings with some sort of absolute supa-societal law.

[KlassWar]

Rape should always be reported to the police. No one is above or beyond the law.

The police is the armed wing of the enemy. We should be eroding the legitimacy of the law and the police at all times and in all places, so reporting anything at all to them should be an absolute last resort. The rule against snitching should be ironclad. There's nothing wrong with handling justice themselves: The problem is that the Party did not expel the rapist, nor did it apply any meaningful discipline on its abusive, predatory member.

We may condemn SWP's verdict without condemning their decision not to involve the authorities.

[Rich]

The problem is that the Party did not expel the rapist, nor did it apply any meaningful discipline on its abusive, predatory member.

How do we know that this guy was an abusive and predatory? I ask because I'm not familiar with the case. It seems generally these day western societies apply a sort of reversed Sharia where a male witness only counts for half a female witness.

[KlassWar]

If the Party had found the allegations to be baseless, slanderous and malicious she would have been immediately expelled from the party. The party's rank-and-file members had significant reservations about the process. The official party report passed narrowly, and them things are usually approved by near-unanimity, because votes on official documents in Marxist parties are traditionally postponed until nigh-unanimity is achieved, because ideally every decision of the party is a display of unity. Some senior party members admit that he was judged by "a jury of his mates."

The authorities and the public eventually caught wind of it because somebody believed the situation was fucked-up enough to tell them, which is a big taboo in any self-respecting far-left party.


While I approve of the idea that bourgeois justice and the bourgeois State are wholly illegitimate and that we never should give a bourgeois government an opportunity to kidnap and torture a Leftist and consequently approve of handling inner-party crimes as a matter of internal iscipline, SWP dropped the ball in the particular way how they handled the matter.

[Goldberk]

so reporting anything at all to them should be an absolute last resort. The rule against snitching should be ironclad

Well thats fine as a theoretical positon, but in reality there are very few alternative avenues of justice, especially for those most vulnerable and oppressed in society.

We may condemn SWP's verdict without condemning their decision not to involve the authorities.

In this case we should do both.

It seems generally these day western societies apply a sort of reversed Sharia where a male witness only counts for half a female witness.

Thats absolute nonsense, just a cursory glance at the data around sexual assaults and prosecutions would inform you that this is not the case.

[Soixante-Retard]

That is an entirely pointless statement within the context of this thread. Congratulations.

I don't see how. HoniSoit is interested to know if crimes ought not to be reported to the police because the people are SWP members. I think any crime ought to be reported regardless of membership to which club someone belongs.

What do you mean by the law?

What I mean is what is on the statute books. It is currently this. Rape is criminal not civil.

[The Clockwork Rat]

I don't see how. HoniSoit is interested to know if crimes ought not to be reported to the police because the people are SWP members. I think any crime ought to be reported regardless of membership to which club someone belongs.

This is a debate within the revolutionary left. You are not of the revolutionary left.

If you were able to tease out arguments of the left - or even some contradictions - that would lead to your conclusion then your conclusion would merit a response, and would indeed be admirable. That, you did not do.

Not to take this too off track, but I might imagine someone of your persuasion arguing that "those bloody Marxists do it all the time to libertarians." The difference there is that much of Left wing discourse is an attempt to tease out the contradictions of capitalist logic, with the result that ... well ... Socialism/Communism (perhaps with a degree of Anarchism). To try to extrapolate that yet further to the result of Libertarianism would be a feat of logic hitherto unheard of. What I'm trying to say is that your argument can not make sense within the bounds of this discussion.

[Soixante-Retard]

This is a debate within the revolutionary left. You are not of the revolutionary left.

Fatuous. HoniSoit is/was interested to know and I proffered my opinion.

[jaycola]

Had they found this man guilty of Rape, how would they have handled punishment? Would they have incarcerated him in a privately operated facility? Would he be subject to parole hearings? Would he receive any form of behavior modification treatment or education?

I don't think this political party is equipped to handle this type of crime. Justice for the victim, had he been found guilty, is not something they could have accomplished.

[KlassWar]

I don't think this political party is equipped to handle this type of crime.

They easily could have given the rapist a memorable beatdown and unceremoniously kicked him from the Party. Had he reported the beatdown and thus snitched on the Party, the kid gloves come off and the rape accusation is put forward.

[Soixante-Retard]

They easily could have given the rapist a memorable beatdown

Does battery mean anything to you?

[The Clockwork Rat]

Had they found this man guilty of Rape, how would they have handled punishment?

There may have been scope to attempt some form of rehabilitation that would never have occurred had the crime been reported to the police. Indeed, perhaps even the recognition of the act having been criminal, and the resulting social stigma, would have been sufficient. If the victim had not thought that a sufficient response could have come from the SWP then we can only wonder why she reported it to the party and not the police.

They easily could have given the rapist a memorable beatdown and unceremoniously kicked him from the Party. Had he reported the beatdown and thus snitched on the Party, the kid gloves come off and the rape accusation is put forward.

This would risk a far more serious response from the state, possibly ending the SWP completely. Don't be ridiculous.

[Conscript]

Does battery mean anything to you?

Communists generally don't acknowledge a bourgeois state's legitimacy in the first place, after all they want to destroy it.

When communists are working with the police it's generally a bad sign. The greek communist party uses state law and the police to combat other leftists in street protests.

Pretty much if any communist is being handled and punished by a state it should only be done by a revolutionary one.

[Jay Ranger]

It certainly makes the SWP look just about as out of touch with the British electorate as it already is. If the police is truly seen as the enemy, then throwing a rapist in the arms of your enemy is what you ought to be doing. Whether or not you believe in the legitimacy of the government in a majority-rule liberal democratic country, you have to be tactical. Any soft-left students aren't going to be interested in being associated with a band of self-governing, sleazy patriarchs now, are they? Frankly, the Durham University Le Crosse team has about as much chance of overthrowing the capitalist order as the SWP, and this fundamentalist approach to legal procedure is only giving the neoliberals more ammunition from which to fire at them.

[KlassWar]

It certainly makes the SWP look just about as out of touch with the British electorate as it already is. If the police is truly seen as the enemy, then throwing a rapist in the arms of your enemy is what you ought to be doing. Whether or not you believe in the legitimacy of the government in a majority-rule liberal democratic country, you have to be tactical. Any soft-left students aren't going to be interested in being associated with a band of self-governing, sleazy patriarchs now, are they? Frankly, the Durham University Le Crosse team has about as much chance of overthrowing the capitalist order as the SWP, and this fundamentalist approach to legal procedure is only giving the neoliberals more ammunition from which to fire at them.

Considering that police routinely torture arrested Marxists for intel, do we really want to hand any commie to them pigs under any circumstance? In the case of crimes committed between Marxists, shouldn't we at least try to determine the accused's guilt against a jury of fellow commies before handing the accused over to the enemy for prosecution, considering the strategic threat arrests pose for far-left movements?