Marxism is not the answer - Page 17 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Workers of the world, unite! Then argue about Trotsky and Stalin for all eternity...
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#14808406
If

If?

"capitalism" is different from the commerce of Rome

Fictitious capital

Marx Vol. III Part V, Chapter 29. wrote:With the development of interest-bearing capital and the credit system, all capital seems to double itself, and sometimes treble itself, by the various modes in which the same capital, or perhaps even the same claim on a debt, appears in different forms in different hands. The greater portion of this "money-capital" is purely fictitious.

2002

Goods and services transactions represent 3 percent of the monetary and financial transactions - $32.3 trillion (world GDP).

Transactions concerning international trade amount to hardly 2 percent of foreign exchange transactions - $8 trillion.

Settlements of purchases and sales of shares and bonds on organised markets - (operations supposedly pointing to the excellence of capital markets) are only 3.4 percent of monetary settlements - $36.7 trillion.

Derivative financial instruments transactions - $699 trillion!


Source: François Morin, Le Nouveau Mur de l'argent


:)
Last edited by ingliz on 26 May 2017 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
#14808454
SolarCross wrote:Whatever you paid for your education it wasn't worth it.
I didn't pay anything for it. That's the beauty of a socialism-inspired welfare system.
#14808539
The Immortal Goon wrote:It is certainly a misconception that Dialectic Materialism is used primarily to become fortune-tellers. In this very thread there are lots of examples of people demanding answers for how things in the future are supposed to be, only to be disappointed that we cannot, nor do we clain, to be able to see the future.

Indeed that would be a misconception but it is not mine. Clearly communists from Marx down can use Dialectical Materialism to predict what they want to happen which is communism and nothing else. Weather? Nope. Stock market prices? Nope. Lunar Eclipses? Nope. It is no wonder Dialectical Materialism is of no interest to anyone but communists given that the only thing it can predict, by the most curious of coincidences, is only what communists want it to predict, communism just communism. :lol:

That doesn't strike you as the least bit suspicious does it?

The Immortal Goon wrote:You seem to be defining, "capitalism," as trade. Which nobody from Adam Smith on down does. Adam Smith is important here as he is the first to describe the new system that is developing around him.

Adam Smith explains, in his view, how the economic system began to change:

Except it isn't a new "system" it is the old "system" from before mercantilism coming back. There is a kind of oscillation between the concerns of the princes and the concerns of the merchants.

Princes are warriors and governors so they like, as a matter of self-interest, controlling, they like ruling and they fear their princely rivals, perpetually they see merchants as cash cows, potential supporters, tools of power, fall guys and potential traitors, hence they are predisposed to narratives and theories that justify interfering with the trade of traders, and so for the benefit of the princes you get Mercantilism and later you get Keynes.

Pushing back against this you have the Merchants who are civilians and the governed so they like, as a matter of self-interest, to be left to do business without being shaken down, terrified, bullied, bossed around and being coerced into acting against their interests by haughty and terrifying princes. Hence they are predisposed to narratives and theories that justify princes taking a hands off, live and let live approach to the trade of traders, and so for the benefit of the merchants you get Smith and later you get Hayek and Mises.

But wherever the zeitgeist lies on the Keynes-Smith axis it is ALL capitalism because capitalism is:
capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market


Well from that definition it might be argued that the Keynesian end of the spectrum is capitalism compromised while the other is capitalism pure.

We can play semantic games with the word capitalism but it is a distraction because the point is feudalism does not give rise to capitalism as was already shown.

The use of slaves for production is immaterial as to whether there is capitalism or not, this is a moral or legal issue not an economic one. Note that human slavery is essentially the same as animal slavery except humans are the chattel goods instead of animals. You would not hesitate to call a modern dairy farm with its private ownership of capital goods, private decision and market pricing to be anything other than capitalism in action even while it relies very directly on the enslavement of many animals. Just so a Ancient Roman vineyard with its private ownership of capital goods, private decision and market pricing can't be anything other than capitalism even while it may use significant human slavery.

The reason that the pagan Roman Vineyard could utilise human slaves but the modern vineyard (generally) cannot is because the Christians altered the moral framework to forbid it, just as they did for sodomy (and I say that as a pagan myself). The European secularists inherited the Christian morality even while they distanced themselves from the priests whom were the origins of it because they did not have any different or better ideas and by then this morality was ingrained by a thousand years or more of habit. Then the industrial revolution happened, the British Empire happened and the whole world became enthralled to the power of European (christian / post-christian) culture because of its spectacular technical prowess (steamships and Gatling guns) and so also took up the association of human slavery with sin or crime which it carried in tow.

Clearly slavery does not give rise to feudalism which in turn does not give rise to capitalism. If it did then the following thing must of happened:

The human slavery practised by European colonists in the new world from the 16th century onwards would be succeeded by a King William the Conqueror style deal where his loyal soldiers would get land rights for helping him gain title to England. See how that is a complete non-sequitur?

Incidently with the passing of Christianity it is very likely that the association of crime made with slavery will also pass just as happened with sodomy, with the reversion to pagan morals this is all but guaranteed.
#14808565
SolarCross wrote:Clearly communists from Marx down can use Dialectical Materialism to predict what they want to happen which is communism and nothing else.


Since I provided a citation that disproved this assertion, I would appreciate if you could provide a counter citation. That way we could move on from there. This seems to be just your feelings, keeping in mind that you have refused to educate yourself at all on the topic.

SolarCross wrote:Except it isn't a new "system" it is the old "system" from before mercantilism coming back.


This is completely counter to Adam Smith, Marx, the data I provided, and the data that Ingliz provided--all with citations and notes.

What makes your feelings more important than a half a millennium of human history?

If you left any kind of citation or source, we could look at it. You provide absolutely nothing except for having been triggered.

Your long feels about paganism is completely uninteresting. Please try to respond with facts.
#14808597
@SolarCross

Try this, it's an easy read.

"Exactly what is to be understood by the expression: modern capitalism? Certain writers have asserted that capitalism originated as soon as mobile wealth had been developed; and, if this definition be accepted, capitalism may be said to have been in existence in the Ancient World, not only in that of the Greeks and Romans, but even farther back in the more ancient societies which carried on active commercial transactions.

But such is a case of purely commercial and financial capitalism, if it be capitalism at all. Capitalism never took hold of industry in the Ancient World; and only small craftsmen, supplying local markets, were to be found at work among the Greeks and even in the Roman world. In the main, slave labor provided for the needs of the household (familia) just as it provided for those of the large Roman estates (latifundia). In the first centuries of the Middle Ages, beginning with the time of Charlemagne at least, economic life was almost solely rural in character; the towns were merely fortresses and places of refuge. There was no longer a trace of capitalism. Then the Crusades extended the relations of the Mediterranean countries with the East and thereby stimulated a great commercial expansion enabling the Genoese, the Pisans, and especially the Venetians to accumulate great wealth. This commercial activity accounts for the first manifestations of capitalism in the Italian republics. Yet there was nothing in any way resembling a capitalistic regime, in the modern sense of the word.

Indeed, what are the essential characteristics of capitalistic society, as it exists today? The expansion of international commerce on a large scale is not its sole distinguishing mark; on the contrary, it includes also the flowering of a large scale industry, the triumph of machinery, and the growing power of the great financial houses. In a word, it is the present day union of all these phenomena which really constitutes modern capitalism."

Henri Sée, Modern Capitalism Its Origin and Evolution


In the above, Professor Sée gently mocks "certain writers".


:)
Last edited by ingliz on 27 May 2017 06:13, edited 1 time in total.
#14808616
ingliz wrote:@SolarCross

Try this, it's an easy read.

:)

It is indeed and it is even relevant, so well done you. In it Henry Sée does acknowledge that everything that is meant by capitalism in the modern understanding of the word pre-exists the industrial revolution and goes even as far back as ancient times and further still. The distinction he makes between the commerce of ancient times and now is this:

The expansion of international commerce on a large scale is not its sole distinguishing mark; on the contrary, it includes also the flowering of a large scale industry, the triumph of machinery, and the growing power of the great financial houses.


Which all in all reduces to the "triumph of machinery" since it is that in particular which enables all the rest. The hilarious thing is though that I have already acknowledged this possible distinction when I said:

If "capitalism" is different from the commerce of Rome or Qin dynasty China in any substantial way then it comes from the inclusion of scientific, mathematical and technological knowledge to improve production and distribution, with the English Industrial Revolution just being a particularly rapid increase in aggregate productivity.


Ie: the triumph of the machine. 8)

Largely this distinction is one of scale not kind, for really a pedal powered hand loom is not qualitatively a different thing to a steam powered loom, except in so far as "quantity has a quality of its own". The reason for owning and operating a hand loom is the same as the steam loom: to increase productivity and reduce the cost of time / labour in the production of a saleable asset for trade. The reason both came into existence was in the furtherance of the profit motive.

If we accept the distinction that private property and trade for profit is NOT "capitalism" if it lacks a steam engine then that begs the question what DO we call it?
#14808624
In it Henry Sée does acknowledge that everything that is meant by capitalism in the modern understanding of the word pre-exists the industrial revolution

No, he does not.

Professor Sée wrote:[I]f it be capitalism at all [...] there was nothing in any way resembling a capitalistic regime, in the modern sense of the word.

Are you dyslexic?


:(
#14808636
@ingliz
:?:

He says this:
But such is a case of purely commercial and financial capitalism, if it be capitalism at all. Capitalism never took hold of industry in the Ancient World; and only small craftsmen, supplying local markets, were to be found at work among the Greeks and even in the Roman world.

and he says this:
. Then the Crusades extended the relations of the Mediterranean countries with the East and thereby stimulated a great commercial expansion enabling the Genoese, the Pisans, and especially the Venetians to accumulate great wealth. This commercial activity accounts for the first manifestations of capitalism in the Italian republics.

What's the problem?

But okay I am perfectly comfortable calling capitalism such as it existed before the steam engine something other that "capitalism" but then:

SolarCross wrote:If we accept the distinction that private property and trade for profit is NOT "capitalism" if it lacks a steam engine then that begs the question what DO we call it?


Can you coin a phrase for capitalism before steam engines? I have used the term proto-capitalism in the past though am not sure the "proto" is particularly needed. The steam engine is a mechanism that channels non-human energy sources towards the cause of production, in many ways that sort of thing is as old as apemen first making fire. If the Industrial revolution was coal powered the medieval industry was wood powered: kilns, ovens, forges... Even modern energy sources like solar power and windpower have even very ancient origins. Windmills, water mills, sun drying, sailing craft...

But if "capitalism" is just commerce + better technology and commerce + primitive technology is good while "capitalism" is bad, then is the objection to "capitalism" just the same as the Luddite complaint?
#14808651
SolarCross wrote:Henry Sée does acknowledge that everything that is meant by capitalism in the modern understanding of the word pre-exists the industrial revolution and goes even as far back as ancient times and further still.

No. Capitalism is most often defined as private ownership of the means of production -- capital and land -- and pre-agricultural societies never had private ownership of land. Indeed, private ownership of land (in the sense that capital can be owned) was a Roman innovation. Pre-Roman societies based land tenure on customary use rights, not private ownership, so they can't be called capitalist. Although it was based on slavery, Rome did have many characteristics of a capitalist society, including a nominally free -- but landless and therefore effectively enslaved -- urban wage-worker class, which seems to be a characteristic of capitalism as normally understood. Pre-Roman economies did not have significant wage labor classes, just slaves and self-employed artisans.
Which all in all reduces to the "triumph of machinery" since it is that in particular which enables all the rest.

No, it is the landless wage worker that enables the rest.
Largely this distinction is one of scale not kind, for really a pedal powered hand loom is not qualitatively a different thing to a steam powered loom, except in so far as "quantity has a quality of its own".

No, the pedal loom is typically operated by its owner as part of cottage industry production, the steam- or water-powered loom is operated by a wage worker as part of industrial production.
The reason for owning and operating a hand loom is the same as the steam loom: to increase productivity and reduce the cost of time / labour in the production of a saleable asset for trade. The reason both came into existence was in the furtherance of the profit motive.

But there is a difference between the self-employed artisan and the landless wage worker. The latter characterizes capitalism.
If we accept the distinction that private property and trade for profit is NOT "capitalism" if it lacks a steam engine then that begs the question what DO we call it?

It's the effectively-enslaved landless wage worker class that characterizes capitalism, not industrial machinery per se.
#14808661
Henry Sée does

Sée's argument distilled:

Professor Sée wrote:discussion of capitalism in ancient times is not worthwhile.

While the accumulation of capital is a necessary condition for the creation of a capitalistic society, the mere existence of capital is not enough to create such a society. In the slave owning household economy of the Ancient World, where bills of exchange or transferable securities were unknown, and hired workmen hardly known, both economic and social conditions were such that capitalism could not develop.


:)
#14808673
@ingliz

What is your definition of capitalism then, it seems to be radically different from the conventional usage?

Also it remains that capitalism prior to the steam engine needs a name to distinguish it from capitalism after the steam engine if they really are substantially different things.
#14808696
SolarCross wrote:What is your definition of capitalism then, it seems to be radically different from the conventional usage?


It reads identical to what everybody in conventional usage maintains. Perhaps if you could point out where you are having difficulty, it would be helpful.

SolarCross wrote:Also it remains that capitalism prior to the steam engine needs a name to distinguish it from capitalism after the steam engine if they really are substantially different things.


It does not since the root word is capital.

To avoid confusion, first quoting John Stuart Mill and his conclusion that capitalism facilitated the creation of modern machinery in order to create and maintain more capital:

John Stuart Mill wrote:From the same principles we are now able to arrive at a final conclusion respecting the effects which machinery, and generally the sinking of capital for a productive purpose, produce upon the immediate and ultimate interests of the labouring class. The characteristic property of this class of industrial improvements is the conversion of circulating capital into fixed: and it was shown in the first Book,*21 that in a country where capital accumulates slowly, the introduction of machinery, permanent improvements of land, and the like, might be, for the time, extremely injurious; since the capital so employed might be directly taken from the wages fund, the subsistence of the people and the employment for labour curtailed, and the gross annual produce of the country actually diminished. But in a country of great annual savings and low profits, no such effects need be apprehended. Since even the emigration of capital, or its unproductive expenditure, or its absolute waste, do not in such a country, if confined within any moderate bounds, at all diminish the aggregate amount of the wages fund—still less can the mere conversion of a like sum into fixed capital, which continues to be productive, have that effect. It merely draws off at one orifice what was already flowing out at another; or if not, the greater vacant space left in the reservoir does but cause a greater quantity to flow in. Accordingly, in spite of the mischievous derangements of the money-market which were at one time occasioned by the sinking of great sums in railways, I was never able to agree with those who apprehended mischief, from this source, to the productive resources of the country.*22 Not on the absurd ground (which to any one acquainted with the elements of the subject needs no confutation) that railway expenditure is a mere transfer of capital from hand to hand, by which nothing is lost or destroyed. This is true of what is spent in the purchase of the land; a portion too of what is paid to parliamentary agents, counsel, engineers, and surveyors is saved by those who receive it, and becomes capital again: but what is laid out in the bonâ fide construction of the railway itself is lost and gone; when once expended, it is incapable of ever being paid in wages or applied to the maintenance of labourers again; as a matter of account, the result is that so much food and clothing and tools have been consumed, and the country has got a railway instead. But what I would urge is, that sums so applied are mostly a mere appropriation of the annual overflowing which would otherwise have gone abroad, or been thrown away unprofitably, leaving neither a railway nor any other tangible result. The railway gambling of 1844 and 1845 probably saved the country from a depression of profits and interest, and a rise of all public and private securities, which would have engendered still wilder speculations, and when the effects came afterwards to be complicated by the scarcity of food, would have ended in a still more formidable crisis than was experienced in the years immediately following. In the poorer countries of Europe, the rage for railway construction might have had worse consequences than in England, were it not that in those countries such enterprises are in a great measure carried on by foreign capital. The railway operations of the various nations of the world may be looked upon as a sort of competition for the overflowing capital of the countries where profit is low and capital abundant, as England and Holland. The English railway speculations are a struggle to keep our annual increase of capital at home; those of foreign countries are an effort to obtain it.*23

IV.5.6
It already appears from these considerations, that the conversion of circulating capital into fixed, whether by railways, or manufactories, or ships, or machinery, or canals, or mines, or works of drainage and irrigation, is not likely, in any rich country, to diminish the gross produce or the amount of employment for labour. How much then is the case strengthened, when we consider that these transformations of capital are of the nature of improvements in production, which, instead of ultimately diminishing circulating capital are the necessary conditions of its increase, since they alone enable a country to possess a constantly augmenting capital without reducing profits to the rate which would cause accumulation to stop. There is hardly any increase of fixed capital which does not enable the country to contain eventually a larger circulating capital, than it otherwise could possess and employ within its own limits; for there is hardly any creation of fixed capital which, when it proves successful, does not cheapen the articles on which wages are habitually expended. All capital sunk in the permanent improvement of land lessens the cost of food and materials; almost all improvements in machinery cheapen the labourer's clothing or lodging, or the tools with which these are made; improvements in locomotion, such as railways, cheapen to the consumer all things which are brought from a distance. All these improvements make the labourers better off with the same money wages, better off if they do not increase their rate of multiplication. But if they do, and wages consequently fall, at least profits rise, and, while accumulation receives an immediate stimulus, room is made for a greater amount of capital before a sufficient motive arises for sending it abroad. Even the improvements which do not cheapen the things consumed by the labourer, and which, therefore, do not raise profits nor retain capital in the country, nevertheless, as we have seen, by lowering the minimum of profit for which people will ultimately consent to save, leave an ampler margin than previously for eventual accumulation, before arriving at the stationary state.

IV.5.7
We may conclude, then, that improvements in production, and emigration of capital to the more fertile soils and unworked mines of the uninhabited or thinly peopled parts of the globe, do not, as appears to a superficial view, diminish the gross produce and the demand for labour at home; but, on the contrary, are what we have chiefly to depend on for increasing both, and are even the necessary conditions of any great or prolonged augmentation of either. Nor is it any exaggeration to say, that within certain, and not very narrow, limits, the more capital a country like England expends in these two ways, the more she will have left.


This was not a feature of feudalism, which was not based upon capital, but upon a system of fealty.

As an example of this second point, consider the Custom of Ulster, where a feudal hierarchy had been maintained but was forced to come to grips with a capitalist mode of production under which it had been operating.

For our current discussion, the problem of improvements is worth looking at. To simplify the issue, essentially they were running into a problem while maintaining parts of a feudal society in rhetoric with a capitalist base. Namely, that if you were a tenant on land and you built a mill, a refinery, and brought in other improvements machines to help make the land more productive you'd run into an issue—the land would be far more valuable, meaning that your rents could go way up.

Previously, under feudalism, this wasn't an issue. You remained on the land as part of a fiefdom that was almost entirely unrelated to generating capital.

By the 19th century this had been a problem for a long time. The Ulster Custom was to retain the feudal right of protestants in Ulster to be able to remain on the land, even if they had improved it and raised the value considerably.

The recognition of this feudal practice did not extent to Catholics or anyone outside of Ulster as it was never intended to do so. Which is why the Second Irish Land of 1881 had to be put into place in order to give some incentive to improve the land, increase production, and generate capital.

Of course this was double-edged—the vast majority of the tenants by this time were interested in making capital themselves. Again, this was not an issue under feudalism as the idea of owning the land in the way we think about it was itself alien. But by this point, land was something that could be bought and sold.

This is a way to illustrate that under feudalism the profit motive, the need to create capital, as you are trying to describe it did not exist en masse. And in the case of many parts of the UK, it was nearly the 20th century before this idea had fully come into its own. We actually have documents, struggles, even the Land War that bare this out.

Under your conception that there had always been capitalism, these are events that are monstrously impossible. And yet they occurred.

This was anticipated by Marx:

Marx wrote:In the sphere of agriculture, modern industry has a more revolutionary effect than elsewhere, for this reason, that it annihilates the peasant, that bulwark of the old society, and replaces him by the wage-labourer. Thus the desire for social changes, and the class antagonisms are brought to the same level in the country as in the towns. The irrational, old-fashioned methods of agriculture are replaced by scientific ones. Capitalist production completely tears asunder the old bond of union which held together agriculture and manufacture in their infancy. But at the same time it creates the material conditions for a higher synthesis in the future, viz., the union of agriculture and industry on the basis of the more perfected forms they have each acquired during their temporary separation. Capitalist production, by collecting the population in great centres, and causing an ever-increasing preponderance of town population, on the one hand concentrates the historical motive power of society; on the other hand, it disturbs the circulation of matter between man and the soil, i.e., prevents the return to the soil of its elements consumed by man in the form of food and clothing; it therefore violates the conditions necessary to lasting fertility of the soil. By this action it destroys at the same time the health of the town labourer and the intellectual life of the rural labourer. [244] But while upsetting the naturally grown conditions for the maintenance of that circulation of matter, it imperiously calls for its restoration as a system, as a regulating law of social production, and under a form appropriate to the full development of the human race. In agriculture as in manufacture, the transformation of production under the sway of capital, means, at the same time, the martyrdom of the producer; the instrument of labour becomes the means of enslaving, exploiting, and impoverishing the labourer; the social combination and organisation of labour-processes is turned into an organised mode of crushing out the workman’s individual vitality, freedom, and independence. The dispersion of the rural labourers over larger areas breaks their power of resistance while concentration increases that of the town operatives. In modern agriculture, as in the urban industries, the increased productiveness and quantity of the labour set in motion are bought at the cost of laying waste and consuming by disease labour-power itself. Moreover, all progress in capitalistic agriculture is a progress in the art, not only of robbing the labourer, but of robbing the soil; all progress in increasing the fertility of the soil for a given time, is a progress towards ruining the lasting sources of that fertility. The more a country starts its development on the foundation of modern industry, like the United States, for example, the more rapid is this process of destruction. [245] Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth — the soil and the labourer.


And so you have John Stuart Mill going through the ins and outs of this same issue above.

Which brings me to Marx, writing later:

Marx wrote:John Stuart Mill says in his “Principles of Political Economy":

“It is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day’s toil of any human being.” [1]

That is, however, by no means the aim of the capitalistic application of machinery. Like every other increase in the productiveness of labour, machinery is intended to cheapen commodities, and, by shortening that portion of the working-day, in which the labourer works for himself, to lengthen the other portion that he gives, without an equivalent, to the capitalist. In short, it is a means for producing surplus-value.

In manufacture, the revolution in the mode of production begins with the labour-power, in modern industry it begins with the instruments of labour.

...Thus, apart from the dearness of the machines made in this way, a circumstance that is ever present to the mind of the capitalist, the expansion of industries carried on by means of machinery, and the invasion by machinery of fresh branches of production, were dependent on the growth of a class of workmen, who, owing to the almost artistic nature of their employment, could increase their numbers only gradually, and not by leaps and bounds. But besides this, at a certain stage of its development, modern industry became technologically incompatible with the basis furnished for it by handicraft and Manufacture. The increasing size of the prime movers, of the transmitting mechanism, and of the machines proper, the greater complication, multiformity and regularity of the details of these machines, as they more and more departed from the model of those originally made by manual labour, and acquired a form, untrammelled except by the conditions under which they worked, [18] the perfecting of the automatic system, and the use, every day more unavoidable, of a more refractory material, such as iron instead of wood – the solution of all these problems, which sprang up by the force of circumstances, everywhere met with a stumbling-block in the personal restrictions, which even the collective labourer of Manufacture could not break through, except to a limited extent. Such machines as the modern hydraulic press, the modern power-loom, and the modern carding engine, could never have been furnished by Manufacture.

...The instrument of labour, when it takes the form of a machine, immediately becomes a competitor of the workman himself. [116] The self-expansion of capital by means of machinery is thenceforward directly proportional to the number of the workpeople, whose means of livelihood have been destroyed by that machinery. The whole system of capitalist production is based on the fact that the workman sells his labour-power as a commodity. Division of labour specialises this labour-power, by reducing it to skill in handling a particular tool. So soon as the handling of this tool becomes the work of a machine, then, with the use-value, the exchange-value too, of the workman’s labour-power vanishes; the workman becomes unsaleable, like paper money thrown out of currency by legal enactment. That portion of the working-class, thus by machinery rendered superfluous, i.e., no longer immediately necessary for the self-expansion of capital, either goes to the wall in the unequal contest of the old handicrafts and manufactures with machinery, or else floods all the more easily accessible branches of industry, swamps the labour-market, and sinks the price of labour-power below its value. It is impressed upon the workpeople, as a great consolation, first, that their sufferings are only temporary (“a temporary inconvenience"), secondly, that machinery acquires the mastery over the whole of a given field of production, only by degrees, so that the extent and intensity of its destructive effect is diminished. The first consolation neutralises the second. When machinery seizes on an industry by degrees, it produces chronic misery among the operatives who compete with it. Where the transition is rapid, the effect is acute and felt by great masses. History discloses no tragedy more horrible than the gradual extinction of the English hand-loom weavers, an extinction that was spread over several decades, and finally sealed in 1838. Many of them died of starvation, many with families vegetated for a long time on 2½ d. a day. [117] On the other hand, the English cotton machinery produced an acute effect in India. The Governor General reported 1834-35:

“The misery hardly finds a parallel in the history of commerce. The bones of the cotton-weavers are bleaching the plains of India.”

No doubt, in turning them out of this “temporal” world, the machinery caused them no more than “a temporary inconvenience.” For the rest, since machinery is continually seizing upon new fields of production, its temporary effect is really permanent. Hence, the character of independence and estrangement which the capitalist mode of production as a whole gives to the instruments of labour and to the product, as against the workman, is developed by means of machinery into a thorough antagonism. [118] Therefore, it is with the advent of machinery, that the workman for the first time brutally revolts against the instruments of labour.


This is a very long way of saying that capitalism created the motive, need, and means to create the steam engine.

The steam engine did not suddenly come into existence—it was part of a process that relates to the generation of capital.
#14808721
I've just been reading up some definitions of both "feudalism" and "capitalism" and here are some of the more interesting findings:

The word feudal was not coined until 17th century and the word feudalism was not coined until as late as the 19th century.

In contrast the word "capital" is older being a late latin word from the 12th century (slap bang in the middle of "feudal" times for england / france) that is based on the latin word "caput" which means head but the "capital" back in 12th / 13th century was used to refer to "funds, stock of merchandise, sum of money, or money carrying interest." very much as it is used today actually.

Going back to the word feudal, although it was not coined until the 17th century, it is thought that it was derived from another word "feodum" which is a medieval latin word meaning a "land grant", however the interesting thing is that the word "feodum" is most widely believed to have evolved from a Frankish word fehu-ôd which means "cattle goods" or movable object of value.

Now here is a fun thing, recall that the word capital evolved from the word caput well the words chattel and cattle also were derived from this word caput! So the modern words "capitalism" and "feudalism" both have roots that mean property, even specifically movable property.

It is amusing that people now create fanciful narratives around these modern words "capitalism" and "feudalism" as if they were philosophically diametrically different things when actually, prosaically, they are derived from concepts that originally are really the same thing, property.

Another little nugget from the etymology that will be useful later:

Bloch explains that by the beginning of the 10th century it was common to value land in monetary terms but to pay for it with moveable objects of equivalent value, such as arms, clothing, horses or food. This was known as feos, a term that took on the general meaning of paying for something in lieu of money. This meaning was then applied to land itself, in which land was used to pay for fealty, such as to a vassal. Thus the old word feos meaning movable property changed little by little to feus meaning the exact opposite: landed property.


What really makes "feudalism" distinct from "capitalism" is the media of exchange. In England / France around the so called "feudal times" money was precious metals such as gold or silver and not "promissary notes" as we are more used to today, the reason for this could either be that promissary notes were not trusted or not widely useful due to low levels of literacy. However gold and silver was very scarce in England / France at that time due to the absence of native sources and low levels of trade with regions rich with it, leading to a situation of low liquidity of usable money as media for exchange. Hence the high utilisation of unusual by modern standards forms of exchange as a work around to the lack of coin available as mentioned in the quote above which included importantly the use of land to purchase services which is the particular thing that makes so called "feudalism" distinct from other economic periods.

wiki: Capitalism
wiki: Feudalism
#14808726
SolarCross wrote:The word feudal was not coined until 17th century and the word feudalism was not coined until as late as the 19th century.


The first time it was written in English in its form was

J. Selden Titles of Honor 188 wrote:Neither did the Prouinces make them otherwise then Personal. For they were not annext to them as Feudall.


Here, clearly this is already an established custom (and word) that they are putting to paper. Regardless, the ethnology is clearly in relation to the system they are maintaining, not creating some kind of alternative mysterious conspiracy so that your feelings will be hurt on an internet forum half a millennium later.

The same is, indeed, true for the word, "capitalism." It was a system that existed, regardless of name, from before Adam Smith wrote about it. He himself did not call it capitalism, but that does not mean that the system did not exist.

SolarCross wrote:In contrast the word "capital" is older being a late latin word from the 12th century


Please cite where anybody denied that capital did not exist during feudalism.

SolarCross wrote:It is amusing that people now create fanciful narratives around these modern words "capitalism" and "feudalism" as if they were philosophically diametrically different things when actually, prosaically, they are derived from concepts that originally are really the same thing, property.


Nobody was actually addressing, "these modern words," at all, but the systems that we call capitalism and feudalism today (and have been doing for the better part of a thousand years).

SolarCross wrote:What really makes "feudalism" distinct from "capitalism" is the media of exchange.


This is not accurate. They are different systems for many reasons, none of them have anything to do with the, "media of exchange."

In fact, your own sources say as much:

Wikipedia wrote:Feudalism was a combination of legal and military customs in medieval Europe that flourished between the 9th and 15th centuries. Broadly defined, it was a way of structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour.

...The phrase "feudal society" as defined by Marc Bloch[9] offers a wider definition than Ganshof's and includes within the feudal structure not only the warrior aristocracy bound by vassalage, but also the peasantry bound by manorialism, and the estates of the Church. Thus the feudal order embraces society from top to bottom, though the "powerful and well-differentiated social group of the urban classes" came to occupy a distinct position to some extent outside the classical feudal hierarchy.


Since you seem to be a fan of Marc Bloch, who defined feudalism and manorialism as essentially one and the same; and Wikipedia, it goes on in another article:

Wikipedia wrote:Manorialism was an essential element of feudal society.[1] It was the organizing principle of rural economy that originated in the Roman villa system of the Late Roman Empire,[2] and was widely practiced in medieval western and parts of central Europe. It was slowly replaced by the advent of a money-based market economy and new forms of agrarian contract.

Manorialism was characterised by the vesting of legal and economic power in a Lord of the Manor, supported economically from his own direct landholding in a manor (sometimes called a fief), and from the obligatory contributions of a legally subject part of the peasant population under the jurisdiction of himself and his manorial court. These obligations could be payable in several ways, in labor (the French term corvée is conventionally applied), in kind, or, on rare occasions, in coin.


Since you seem to be a fan of Wikipedia, consider this:

Means of Production wrote:In economics and sociology, the means of production are physical, non-human inputs used for the production of economic value, such as facilities, machinery, tools,[1] infrastructural capital and natural capital.

The means of production includes two broad categories of objects: instruments of labor (tools, factories, infrastructure, etc.) and subjects of labor (natural resources and raw materials). If creating a good, people operate on the subjects of labor, using the instruments of labor, to create a product; or, stated another way, labour acting on the means of production creates a good.[2]

In an agrarian society the means of production is the soil and the shovel. In an industrial society it is the mines and the factories, and in a knowledge economy computers and networks. In a broad sense, the "means of production" also includes the "means of distribution" such as stores, the internet and railroads.[3]

The ownership of the social means of production is a key factor in categorizing different economic systems. In the terminology of classical economics, the means of production are the "factors of production" minus financial capital and minus human capital.


I don't suppose you have anything to add about the substance of anything I or Ingliz presented, or really anything on the Wikipedia pages that you read?
#14808732
The point is the shortage of precious metals prompted the tendency to use alternative means of hire and reward, such as land grants in the period and place that we now call feudalism. Slavery would have been another way to obtain labour without coin but at this time the Catholic Church is gaining tremendous cultural influence particularly on everyday morals and they were pushing the narrative that slavery was an evil.

873 AD - Pope John VIII commands under penalty of sin that all Christians who hold other Christians as slaves must set them free.

1080 AD - William the Conqueror prohibits the sale of any person to "heathens" (non-Christians) as slaves.

So in the west of europe between 10th century or so and the 14th century you have situation where slavery is banned, gold and silver is scarce and promissary notes are of little use due to either low levels of literacy or lack of trust prompting the need to find other ways to pay.. and so you get land grants, tithes, fealty, cows and such.

There is no need to get upset, you have a nice narrative that slavery becomes feudalism which becomes capitalism (by dialectical magic) but what you lack is an actual material causal link that actually explains why western europe between 900 AD and 1300 ish saw the end of slavery and had a low level of monetary exchange before both slavery and higher levels of monetary exchange began to resume in later centuries. Now you do.
#14808734
Well done. You've invalidated all your previous sources. Here I thought you may have been making progress in the use of facts.

SolarCross wrote:The point is the shortage of precious metals prompted the tendency to use alternative means of hire and reward, such as land grants in the period and place that we now call feudalism. Slavery would have been another way to obtain labour without coin but at this time the Catholic Church is gaining tremendous cultural influence particularly on everyday morals and they were pushing the narrative that slavery was an evil.


This presumes that:

1. Everybody wants to be fiat liberal capitalists.

2. That people people knew about fiat liberal capitalism despite having never come close to existing before.

3. That the Catholic Church hated slavery.

4. That the Catholic Church hated slavery for no apparent reason at all (hint, the prohibition of certain types of slavery had specific reasoning behind them).

5. That peasants were citizens with an equal voice in society.

6. That these same peasants decided that they were getting fair compensation for their work.

Please verify any of this.

SolarCross wrote:So in the west of europe between 10th century or so and the 14th century you have situation where slavery is banned


It is not banned, though the enslavement of Christians is banned by the Church (for obvious reasons).

Slavery itself in Medieval Europe is very problematic. There are historians that argue there was a lot of slavery, and that we simply use different words for it that we don't recognize; there are those that argue that there was no need for slavery as serfdom served the same purpose in a different means of production; there are those that argue that it is plainly obvious that there was a lot of slavery throughout the time. These latter groups used to be more of a minority, but genetic markers tend to bare out some of the cases we find in the historiography.

Regardless, the Europeans are very keen on bringing slavery back as soon as there's a material reason to do so—making me very much doubt your claims about a moral decline in slavery for no apparent reason at all.

SolarCross wrote:There is no need to get upset, you have a nice narrative that slavery becomes feudalism which becomes capitalism (by dialectical magic) but what you lack is actual material causal link that actually explains why western europe between 900 AD and 1300 ish saw the end of slavery and had a low level of monetary exchange before both slavery and higher levels of monetary exchange began to resume in later centuries. Now you do.


Does it not bother you that you cannot engage in any of the arguments presented to you and you have to keep making up new narratives in every post completely devoid of any factual or logical evidence?

If you are having difficulty in understanding dialectics, we can go back and discuss it. But when it was brought up, you abruptly changed topics to debate the nonsensical notion that everybody wanted to be a capitalist despite capitalism having not been invented and contrary to your own sourcing. Now you want to talk about dialectics again?

What are you having difficulty with? Maybe we can start from there again...
#14808736
Are you ready yet to concede that slavery does not cause feudalism and that feudalism does not cause capitalism or are you going to persist with marx's magical dialectics?
#14808738
First, your characterization of Marxists historiography is horrifyingly simplified. You should probably look into it a little bit more. There are plenty of sources that have been used.

If you would like help with it, I am sure any number of people would be happy to explain it to you.

Second, what makes you think that your inability to stay on a specific topic nor use sources or citations would be persuasive to anybody? I find it very interesting that you think it would. Could you elaborate?

I ask in part because it seems that right-wingers in particular are prone to use a postmodern argument based upon their feelings instead of facts. Since you have refused to use any facts, and have even gone to pains to invalidate the two wikipedia citations you made to support yourself, I'm curious what you think would be persuasive.
#14808789
the Catholic Church were pushing the narrative that slavery was an evil

The Catholic Order of Knights of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem kept and sold Muslims. Attacking pirates and Muslim shipping, Malta became a centre for slave trading, the Order selling captured North Africans and Turks surplus to their needs.

their needs

One thousand slaves, chained to the oars, to man the galleys of the Order.

between 10th century or so and the 14th century you have situation where slavery is banned,

Malta remained a slave market until well into the late 18th century.


:)
  • 1
  • 14
  • 15
  • 16
  • 17
  • 18

Liberals and centrists even feel comfortable just[…]

UK study finds young adults taking longer to find […]

He's a parasite

The Truth Social platform seems to have very littl[…]

Yes I was using the word fun, loosely , ironicall[…]