[AFAIK]

In capitalist societies commodities and other assets are used as a store of wealth. Gold, silver, rice, grain, land and property are often considered to be low risk investments. This demand increases the price of the commodity for everyone. Gold miners sell the metal for the highest price they can gain on the market without taking the end use of the metal into account. Dentistry and manufacturing are more socially productive pursuits than storage in the collectivist's view.

Will levels of trust be high enough for people to live without savings? What if someone wants to save some of the product of their labour for a rainy day? What method of storage would have the lowest negative impact on others?

[U184]

Just the very idea, of worrying about others, others in a broad since of those I do not know, while I am trying to save away for my and my families needs... is a foreign concept.

That in and of itself should be a good measure.

[mikema63]

Why save when you have the available production of society to help during hard times? Obviously society code surpluses would be stored. Food for the winter.

But if everyone is sharing their food production the only way you would go hungry would be the result of society wide lack of food.

The same would be true of anything else.

Besides, most savings are for either raising capital, or preparing for retirement. Both are unnecessary in a communist society.

[AFAIK]

It would be awesome if we could achieve that level of trust. Hunter gatherers managed to.
http://libcom.org/history/hunter-gather ... john-gowdy

[youtube]gng7EBv3G2k[/youtube]

[mikema63]

Or you could have a government enforcing it.

[Coyote]

Hunter-gatherers were destitute!

Now, I'm not making a value judgement on that lifestyle. Perhaps we'd all be better off that way.

But, if we are talking about wealth, about more wealth for all, then hunter-gatherers cannot be our model...

[mikema63]

The one who brought that up was the ancap.

Please refrain from beating up the poor straw man.

[AFAIK]

Hunter gathers are much wealthier than those in state capitalist societies if we measure leisure time. HGs work no more than 4 hours a day and the work has social and ritualistic elements mixed to it so it is an enjoyable experience.

Or you could have a government enforcing it.

That's a scary thought. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot......
Allende seems like a very reasonable leader. We should be cautious and maintain checks and balances.

What do leftists think about the use of bitcoins? Since the coin can only be used in trade and storage its use as money doesn't interfere with other uses.

[Technology]

Or you could have a government enforcing it.

Why should we trust that government? The "who watches the watchmen" problem is unavoidable, and you don't have to be crazily paranoid to want a safety valve. I need to be able to save in case the system decides to screw me over. Perfect faith in an abstracted entity sounds quite familiar and scary to me.

[mikema63]

So we switch to ancap run by private defense corporations? Who watches them? Really at these of the day it's impossible to ensure 100% effective and honest anything.


You just have to build it with safeguards and work to improving it continuously.

[Technology]

So we switch to ancap run by private defense corporations?

It's not a dichotomy like this.

You just have to build it with safeguards and work to improving it continuously.

If singular gigantic institutions are the only things ensuring that people get enough to survive, then something has already gone drastically wrong.

[AFAIK]

I think I would vote anarcho-syndicalism if it were put to a referendum. I like the idea of living in a mixed economy though. There are pros and cons to every system so why not let people gravitate to the one that best meets their desires?

In the nation state system I believe that populations should be sovereign and have the right to self determination. It would be nice to localise this as much as possible.

[mikema63]

If singular gigantic institutions are the only things ensuring that people get enough to survive, then something has already gone drastically wrong.

That would be what human societies are.

[lucky]

Besides, most savings are for either raising capital, or preparing for retirement. Both are unnecessary in a communist society.

Saving is necessary for raising capital in a communist society, it's impossible to create capital without saving. Perhaps it's the government who does the saving, but it's still there. See the Y=C+I+G equation.

[AFAIK]

If singular gigantic institutions are the only things ensuring that people get enough to survive, then something has already gone drastically wrong.

That would be what human societies are.

The state is an imperialistic monster swallowing or distorting anything and everything it can get it's hands on. We need to chop it into many separate, autonomous, self sufficient, hand held pieces because its appetite can never be sated. It can never be allowed to overpower the population.

[Coyote]

Hunter gathers are much wealthier than those in state capitalist societies if we measure leisure time. HGs work no more than 4 hours a day and the work has social and ritualistic elements mixed to it so it is an enjoyable experience.

As I stated, I make no value judgement on that type of lifestyle. They may very well have it better than anyone.

But, that being said, they are not wealthier than anyone. Even if you measure leisure time. They die, constantly. Their infant mortality rate is close to 100%.

You can make the case that the lifestyle is better. But they are destitute, any way you slice it.

[Leninist]

I think I would vote anarcho-syndicalism if it were put to a referendum. I like the idea of living in a mixed economy though. There are pros and cons to every system so why not let people gravitate to the one that best meets their desires?

In the nation state system I believe that populations should be sovereign and have the right to self determination. It would be nice to localise this as much as possible.

You do not take into account one of the most important aspects of socialist society, the conditioning of new values into people. Scientifically, it is possible to raise people to believe whatever you want. Religions have been doing it for years. We could do that to make people who are selfless and community minded. Don't believe me? Google Utah, which is a state with very high productivity and work interest because the Mormon religion encourages them to do so. Communism without state and community organized conditioning is doomed to fail. And in fact no society can be really approach perfection without such measures.

The state is an imperialistic monster swallowing or distorting anything and everything it can get it's hands on. We need to chop it into many separate, autonomous, self sufficient, hand held pieces because its appetite can never be sated. It can never be allowed to overpower the population.

Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun, but the party must control the gun, not the gun control the party - Mao Zedong, more or less. The state must be treated in a similar manner, because if you simply cut it up, the parts shall eventually grow to consume each other and you end up with the same problem as before. It is better to simply leave the state as it is, and fill it with people who are good and loyal communists. The state is more than the some of its parts, but if the parts are all properly conditioned and motivated people, the state shall be that to.

As I stated, I make no value judgement on that type of lifestyle. They may very well have it better than anyone.

But, that being said, they are not wealthier than anyone. Even if you measure leisure time. They die, constantly. Their infant mortality rate is close to 100%.

You can make the case that the lifestyle is better. But they are destitute, any way you slice it.

I am inclined to agree. You can't accomplish anything more than subsistence with bows and baskets. And I like to think one day we'll have something on Mars. But that's just me .

---

Please do not make multiple replies. Instead, focus them into a single post. I have done this.

-TIG Edit