[The Immortal Goon]

Obviously there was no social progress under communism. Which is why it fell in the USSR, the country went right back to an autocratic monarchy relying on pre industrial labor to undercut grain markets elsewhere. Women lost all of their rights, whippings and beatings of citizens was common, the death penalty was used even on small crimes…Yes, there was absolutely zero social reform.

[ChargedParticle]

Damn, ChargedParticle, I haven't seen such weak criticism of Communism in a long time.

The crimes committed by communist regimes are on record. What is weak about that record?

Did you seriously counter the point about women liberation and social progress with Hitler being nice to some girl?

Just saying that ideologies and the political processes that follow always benefit some or other. Many people benefited from Hitlers selective love, i.e. meaning violently ridding himself of those he considered political enemies or racial low lives and rewarding those following the party line and marching in sync with the power structure. Communist regimes without exception behaved similarly.

Especially on women Hitler had quite some regressive views:

[youtube]eCYFGprGqvs[/youtube]

Yes moral contradiction he was good at. So were commie fanatics.

If it were not for the presence of Communism within the socio-political reality of the last centuries, life in capitalist nations would be a lot more nasty than it is now.

Nice conjecture. Can you make that case?

[ChargedParticle]

What? Well that was quick you scummbed to godwin's law quite early. But back to the actual point good to see you failed to refute the actual social contribution as was pointed out hence you were indeed wrong when proclaiing that communism had no social success story.

The social contribution consisted in favoring those following the totalitarian party-line at the cost of millions of others that were either killed or put away in prisons and labor camps. Favoring a few at the cost of many others I would not call social progress; just a continuation of previous totalitarian format.

Again, lol what? So, by that logic (which has nothing to do with economics btw) there is simply no economical success story by any ideology and before you point out to liberal capitalism, I will take a page from your book and post a random Youtube video documenting the cruel colonization it unleashed.

That's a good point and I'm delighted you mention it. A mere ideology and idealized political economical system is no guarantee that somewhere down the line people don't get exploited or crushed between the wheels, that the whole thing won't evolve into a Frankenstein of sorts. Communism is a very good example of that! Always a good case to illustrate the point. What started as a legitimate revolt against social and political injustice with a desire to create a more human society, quickly devolved into just another monstrosity. I don't see much difference between colonizing and exploiting other people... and colonizing your own citizenry with a monopolistic totalitarian communist regime with an equally large repressive boot.

But then, again good to see that actually you failed to refute the point that USSR did indeed became a world superpower from a backwater European state, hence you were indeed wrong when proclaiing that communism had no economical success story.

I don't consider slave labor an economical activity. Even less economic wealth created by slavery something to be proud of. Might as well point to the wonders of Nazism. They built some great motor highways!

So you agree that Communism did have a successful story culturally and you were wrong when proclaiming that there was none.

I'm saying that any totalitarian regime has its beneficiaries and its cultural evolutions. Art can grow everywhere. Meaning, art and culture are not dependent on ideology or a political system. Didn't Peter the Great enrich Russia with science and arts he imported from the West? At the same time, by modern standards, he was an ass hole as well. The later communist revolution removed some of the shackles of the previous power structure creating some breathing space for culture to evolve, but at the same time it destroyed the lives and breathing space of millions of others that refused to march with the party line. Netto I therefore fail to see much progress; just replacing dogpoo with horse manure.

Game of Thrones? Dafaq? I get it, no arguments, eh?

Just a matter of time before you are able to connect the dots.

[Andrea_Chenier]

The crimes committed by communist regimes are on record. What is weak about that record?

The crimes committed by capitalist regimes are on record, too. What does that change about social progress achieved through Communism? Did the 68 uprisings have nothing to do with the geopolitical presence of Communism in your book? Did emancipation of women, formation of unions, establishment of social security and more or less human work conditions have nothing to do with the history of Communism and socialist worker's struggle?

[Leninist]

[quote="ChargedParticle"]
I don't consider slave labor an economical activity. Even less economic wealth created by slavery something to be proud of. Might as well point to the wonders of Nazism. They built some great motor highways![quote\]

So you reject slave labor as economic actuvity? Then it might interest you to know that every major capitalist state which exists today enjoys its advanced position in no small part thanks to literal, strictly legal, slave labor which took place over the course of centuries.The US, Britain, France, all of them. At least the Russian workers didn't have to worry that they would be killed for learning how to read.

[fuser]

I don't see any point in arguing with CP, when all he is doing is to put finger in his ears and scream, "lalalalaa, commies are evil". How can any one argue against such outstanding debating skills.

But nevertheless economical, cultural and social contribution of Communism are objective facts regardless of what anyone "believes".

[ChargedParticle]

The crimes committed by capitalist regimes are on record, too.

Well yes, you don't need to be a capitalist or a communist to commit crimes. Or don't commit crimes. Just saying that communism started as a revolution to make things better but soon turned into a totalitarian cruel monstrosity itself. A class book example of the saying "the road to hell is often paved with good intentions". That's on record. Sure you can add other monstrosities and atrocities committed and enabled by various other ideologies and totalitarian regimes.

I find it just amusing when people still walk around with banners promoting Communism as the cure for humanity. Or other petty fundamentalist ideologies that supposedly will fix everything like free market fundamentalism. Or Anarachist fundamentalists who blame Capitalism without much critical and informed thinking.

In the end, in my view, we better focus what are the new or emerging monopolies. The inbreeding oligarchy of big business, banking and power politics come to mind. Or the emergence of new bureaucratic monopolies like the EU.

What does that change about social progress achieved through Communism? Did the 68 uprisings have nothing to do with the geopolitical presence of Communism in your book? Did emancipation of women, formation of unions, establishment of social security and more or less human work conditions have nothing to do with the history of Communism and socialist worker's struggle?

The social struggles you refer to were fought not thanks to Communism at all. They were and would be fought anyways and by many different people. Also, here in the Netherlands, socialist parties quickly lost interest in Communism after it became clear that the Communist party in the USSR started behave like a genuine, power hungry and cruel dictatorship itself. Other communist regimes in the world exhibited same obnoxious behavior. Fortunately that did not deter many people from continue fighting for social and political reform, strong labor unions, human rights and democracy. While at the same time embracing a free market economy as the best medicine against poverty. Supporting womens rights and education in poor countries does much more good than promoting old dreams like Communist paradise.

[ChargedParticle]

I don't see any point in arguing with CP, when all he is doing is to put finger in his ears and scream, "lalalalaa, commies are evil". How can any one argue against such outstanding debating skills.

But nevertheless economical, cultural and social contribution of Communism are objective facts regardless of what anyone "believes".

Yea.. not much interesting going on here eh, fuserman!

[fuser]

Of course, your red herrings are not relevant at all. You initiated the discussion by claiming falsely that there is simply no social cultural and economical contribution of Communism and when shown otherwise as an objective fact you started this ridiculous, "They are evil, they are evil". which is obviously nonsense but beside the point.

But I see you are defending free markets and somehow the brutality, death and destruction unleashed by free market capitalism all over the world doesn't matter just because you have decided to support it. Hypocrisy much?

I find it just amusing when people still walk around with banners promoting Communism as the cure for humanity.

Again you clearly don't understand or know what communism is, communism is not some idealistic claptrap making grand claims of curing humanity, whatever the hell that means.

without much critical and informed thinking.

Oh yes, this one was coming. Just so you know its perfectly normal to think that your opponent lack critical and informed thinking but thank whomever the gods may be for them not possessing these informed and critical thinking as understood by you according to which a point regarding women liberation can be countered by posting a random image of Hitler with little girls.

[ChargedParticle]

Of course, your red herrings are not relevant at all. You initiated the discussion by claiming falsely that there is simply no social cultural and economical contribution of Communism and when shown otherwise as an objective fact you started this ridiculous, "They are evil, they are evil". which is obviously nonsense but beside the point.

You have not shown any otherwise. Where is it? I came up with the facts that you are just ignoring, doing your own Blalala recital here

But I see you are defending free markets and somehow the brutality, death and destruction unleashed by free market capitalism all over the world doesn't matter just because you have decided to support it. Hypocrisy much?

You are just talking to yourself and not responding to what I am actually saying. Like a true closed minded fundamentalist in a little bubble.

Again you clearly don't understand or know what communism is, communism is not some idealistic claptrap making grand claims of curing humanity, whatever the hell that means.

Communism, in its interpretations but more importantly its political application was just an abject failure. Most people just moved on...

Oh yes, this one was coming. Just so you know its perfectly normal to think that your opponent lack critical and informed thinking but thank whomever the gods may be for them not possessing these informed and critical thinking as understood by you according to which a point regarding women liberation can be countered by posting a random image of Hitler with little girls.

Yea, you just didn't get it why I posted that lovely image. Not even you didn't get it, you have decided you will never get it, even after it is explained to you in simple English. But maybe you got some fuses burned... dunno.

[ChargedParticle]

So you reject slave labor as economic actuvity?

Yes. Person a whipping person b forcing him to do whatever is a crime more than an economic contribution. I will grant you that crimes have an economic impact. Yup, people who buy or even kidnap children and use them as slave laborers under very inhumane conditions can tell you how well it pays off for them and how nice it is for consumers in the West to buy cheap handwoven carpets and stuff. But why should those crimes be white washed with any argument of "economic contribution"?

Then it might interest you to know that every major capitalist state which exists today enjoys its advanced position in no small part thanks to literal, strictly legal, slave labor which took place over the course of centuries.The US, Britain, France, all of them.

You are right. The colonial past of the West is full of that same stuff. Abusing and exploiting others, often using brutal violence, coercion and murder. Point being? What does that prove exactly? That Capitalism by necessity leads to crimes of that sort?

At least the Russian workers didn't have to worry that they would be killed for learning how to read.

Yea.. ask that the imprisoned laborers in the Gulags.

[fuser]

You have not shown any otherwise. Where is it?

I explicitly mentioned three points in each category. Objective facts.Try reading, it could be good.

I came up with the facts

An image of hitler or red herrings are not facts related to discussion.

You are just talking to yourself and not responding to what I am actually saying.

No I am literally smashing your worthless posts you seem to be calling arguents.

Communism, in its interpretations but more importantly its political application was just an abject failure

Another red herring, are you simply unable to continue with your own points? Your original point was pure nonsense that commies are claiming they have every cure for humanity when pointed out this was not the case you posted this shit which is not relevant at all.

Yea, you just didn't get it why I posted that lovely image. Not even you didn't get it, you have decided you will never get it, even after it is explained to you in simple English.

lol what? Okay, so you are not even paying attention to your own post. The following is what you wrote with that picture :
"Adolfie also had his more human side.". That was it, what the fuck it was explaining in plain english or not. other than that you don't have basic grasp of logic?