Poll; equal pay for equal work, or equal pay for all? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14563239
No Communist would agree with the latter. It is the height of absurdity to compensate a doctor the same as a fast-food cashier. Hence why socialism is "to each according to his work". After the division of labor has been abolished, and communism has been reached, "to each according his need" will be estabished.

Needs and Works are not equal.
#14563252
Dagoth Ur wrote:No Communist would agree with the latter. It is the height of absurdity to compensate a doctor the same as a fast-food cashier. Hence why socialism is "to each according to his work". After the division of labor has been abolished, and communism has been reached, "to each according his need" will be estabished.

Needs and Works are not equal.


Very good. I'm sure you're aware, coming as we both do from benighted Oklahoma, lol, that many Americans think 'Communism' means the latter, 'everything equal'.

But, others might disagree, so I'm still wanting to hear from more actual Communists on this one, even and maybe especially non-Marxist types of Communist.
#14563257
Leveling is absurd. Only the most insane of minds would consider such a system to be easy to enforce.

Also society has already done a fairly good job of valuing abilities. All high-skill labor gets paid more. What is corrupt about basing pay on skill level?

@annatar: I think you are confused. All real Communists are Marxists.
#14563295
Dagoth Ur wrote:Leveling is absurd. Only the most insane of minds would consider such a system to be easy to enforce.

Also society has already done a fairly good job of valuing abilities. All high-skill labor gets paid more. What is corrupt about basing pay on skill level?

@annatar: I think you are confused. All real Communists are Marxists.


You're obviously not a communist then because you clearly don't understand Marxism.
#14563297
Dagoth Ur wrote:No Communist would agree with the latter. It is the height of absurdity to compensate a doctor the same as a fast-food cashier. Hence why socialism is "to each according to his work". After the division of labor has been abolished, and communism has been reached, "to each according his need" will be estabished.

Needs and Works are not equal.


True. In capitalism, we see the absurdity of compensating the used car salesman over the nurse, for example. However, the issue of establishing the 'worth' of any job (or any individual doing that job) remains the challenge that Communism ultimately seeks to address, I think.
#14563363
Here is a passage from Marx that settles this question. Dagoth Ur is correct.

Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme (1875) wrote: Hence, equal right here is still in principle -- bourgeois right, although principle and practice are no longer at loggerheads, while the exchange of equivalents in commodity exchange exists only on the average and not in the individual case.

In spite of this advance, this equal right is still constantly stigmatized by a bourgeois limitation. The right of the producers is proportional to the labor they supply; the equality consists in the fact that measurement is made with an equal standard, labor.

But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only -- for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.

But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!


And, to be clear, it is not to each according to their abilities, from from each according to their abilities. In any case, human beings do not have equal needs so the consequences of this principle is not an equal distribution of resources/pay. In fact, to each an equal amount would be a profoundly unequal distribution of resources.
#14563381
Cartertonian wrote:True. In capitalism, we see the absurdity of compensating the used car salesman over the nurse, for example. However, the issue of establishing the 'worth' of any job (or any individual doing that job) remains the challenge that Communism ultimately seeks to address, I think.

False it would seem to be.
NationalCareersService (for the UK) has it that the range of earnings for a car salesman is...
12,000 to 40,000

and for a nurse...
21,000 to 68,000

Sorry to intrude on your theological debate.
#14563429
Do you favor 'to each according to his abilities, to each according to his need', or 'to each to all the equal amount'?


The former. No (real) communist believes in the later, it has always been a right wing strawman. Anarchist might, they believe in a lot of crazy shit.
#14563430
My point was about how we 'value' people in a civilized society. I profoundly object to the idea that people are 'worth' only what they earn, but equally there are issues Marx fails to address with regard to a Labour theory of value.
#14563437
Cartertonian was being a snob. Not only do nurses start off on better wages if they excel they will earn more than the best used car salesman. Working in sales isn't easy as if you have to achieve your targets or you're out of the door. It requires a certain skill and not everyone is cut out for it. In the public sector, of course, you can underachieve for decades and remain in a job.
#14563465
Actually, Ludovic's point serves to further illustrate the difficulty that exists in ascribing worth to any given job. Why is flogging used cars valued more highly in society than holding the hand of a dying patient in their last moments and giving them comfort and compassion? And as far as the specifics goes you can bet that the healthcare worker doing the hand-holding, or performing the last offices after death, will not be the highly paid nurse consultant who can be earning 60K+. Most likely, it'll be the healthcare assistant on close to minimum wage.

But flogging used cars makes money move around...whereas caring about dying people - or living people for that matter - don't turn anyone a profit. So naturally, our friends from the Right of society have no interest.
#14563493
We shouldn't have cars is that what you're saying? People like to have nice things to spend their money on. I think what you're most offended by is not people buying or selling cars but the fact they have been "used". Like it or not, there is no economic system that can put a price on comforting someone in their dying moments. It's priceless... A party functionary or a television news reader would earn more than your compassionate care assistant in a marxist society.
#14563497
Cartertonian, as you're alluding to, car salesmen have this social stigma of not being as socially useful as, say, nurses performing the hand-holding, so it makes sense that you'd have to compensate them to make up for that. Somebody's got to do the socially disrespected job. I don't understand the hate on car salesmen. If they are actually that well paid, maybe they're in short supply. Besides, why do you care, tax money is not subsidizing them. And, if we are to go with your specific example of a task, it takes more training to buy and sell a car than it takes to hold a hand. And maybe that nurse needs a car on the way to the patient.
Last edited by lucky on 02 Jun 2015 18:36, edited 2 times in total.

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