[Beren]

Doesn't work like that, Beren. They'll always drown together.

No, they won't. They drown together if the frog is stupid enough to trust the scorpion.

What actually matter to Europe are EU-US, EU-Russia, and EU-China relations, the EU-UK relations are secondary or peripheral. As a matter of fact we should care about what happens in Turkey more than what happens in Britain.

[Atlantis]

No, they won't. They drown together if the frog is stupid enough to trust the scorpion.

It is in the nature of the scorpion to sting like it is in the nature of the frog to trust (at least in this fable).

What actually matter to Europe are EU-US, EU-Russia, and EU-China relations, the EU-UK relations are secondary or peripheral. As a matter of fact we should care about what happens in Turkey more than what happens in Britain.

No, the UK will form a community with the Anglosphere, which by its very nature will be antagonistic to continental Europe. Some Europeans may be frogs, but not all

We don't have to carry them on our backs knowing full well we'll be stung in the end. Better to shake them off right now.

PS: the problem with you East Europeans is that you are suckers for the Anglos. It's like the big wide world out there you weren't allowed to visit behind the iron curtain.

[Beren]

PS: the problem with you East Europeans is that you are suckers for the Anglos. It's like the big wide world out there you weren't allowed to visit behind the iron curtain.

I wonder if Eastern Europeans are pro-American more than Western Germans are, except for the Poles perhaps I'm not sure about it. Hungarians are either pro-German/pro-EU/pro-Western or pro-Russian rather than pro-American or pro-Anglo. The cult of Putin has been creating a never-seen Russophilia in Hungary, on the right especially, while Merkel is not really popular because of the migrant hysteria. Obama is more popular than Putin on paper, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be false some day.

Many of you Westerners prefer Russia and China to the Anglos, because you either don't know how the East actually is or you just hate or dislike your own overlords.

[Atlantis]

Many of you Westerners prefer Russia and China to the Anglos, because you either don't know how the East actually works or you just hate or dislike your overlords.

We know how the East works. 18 million of us had a very intensive experience of it.

You are wrong if you think that I'm particularly Russophile. It is true, I did like the Russians I have known. They have that sentimental strain like the Germans and can't do much with the hypocrisy of the British. But I'm certainly not naive. I just want to re-balance foreign affairs. That's the only way we get out from under Uncle Sam's boot. The US has gone rogue during the last 20 years. It needs to be stopped.

It's about balance, not about sucking up to Putin or hating the Yanks. Everything in politics is about balance, especially in the EU.

[Beren]

I just want to re-balance foreign affairs.

We just should promote globalisation. If we re-balance too much Europe will fall into the hands of people like Orbán. In which case the Brits will be proven right to have left the EU.

[Albert]

Please Baren tell me how easterners are?

And Europe is going more to the right because of wrong decisions people in power with mentality like you have made. Like with immigration and this migrant crisis for example.

Unless the current establishment faces up to those mistakes and reforms so they will not be repeated. Someone else will take over.

We are one year into migration crisis, EU officials have still done nothing meaningful to address the situation.

Just to show how out of touch people like you are. Even after all the events happening in Europe recently you still think its alright to bring refugees into Hungary. Sensible people will not follow and vote for people like you obviously.

[Beren]

Please Baren tell me how easterners are?

Some of them are frustrated to the core, and seem to enjoy name calling very much, even if it's repetitive and boring.

[Rich]

:eek: You don't say ...


Germany never turned against Britain. It always was the other way around. That's the arrogance of the empire. They can't help it. It's genetic.

Hitler broke the Munich agreement after six months when he occupied Czechoslovakia. This was the most disgusting insult to our nation. We could not allow such an insult to go unavenged, besides the very practical matter that Hitler could not be trusted. As you know I don't support the modern anti Nazi ideology, we don't need to demonise the Germans or the Nazi. But what Hitler did to Czechoslovakia and Poland was totally unacceptable. I just can't see how there was the slightest thing to debate about whether to go to war in 1939.

And then there's the pre World War I naval race. This was total arrogance on the part of the Kaiser. Arrogant and immensely stupid. Germany so obviously had its hands full preparing for a land war with France and Russia, it could not afford the resources for a major navy or to antagonise the British, by threatening their established naval dominance.

[Albert]

Some of them are frustrated to the core, and seem to enjoy name calling very much, even if it's repetitive and boring.

What? You are the one who kept asking Frollein, over and over, to give you her German cash or you would spank her. Do not project yourself on me.

Talking about frustrations and all.

[Beren]

What? You are the one who kept asking Frollein, over and over, to give you her German cash or you would spank her. Do not project yourself on me.

Talking about frustrations and all.

Sometimes I can't follow you Albert, but keep on if you wish. Talking about frustrations fits you very much.

[Atlantis]

Hitler broke the Munich agreement after six months when he occupied Czechoslovakia. This was the most disgusting insult to our nation. We could not allow such an insult to go unavenged, besides the very practical matter that Hitler could not be trusted. As you know I don't support the modern anti Nazi ideology, we don't need to demonise the Germans or the Nazi. But what Hitler did to Czechoslovakia and Poland was totally unacceptable. I just can't see how there was the slightest thing to debate about whether to go to war in 1939.

And then there's the pre World War I naval race. This was total arrogance on the part of the Kaiser. Arrogant and immensely stupid. Germany so obviously had its hands full preparing for a land war with France and Russia, it could not afford the resources for a major navy or to antagonise the British, by threatening their established naval dominance.

WWII is a continuation of WWI. Obviously, what Hitler did was very wrong. By the time the Nazis took power, Germany was done for. But that wouldn't have happened without the catastrophe of WWI. The Kaiser was just a silly fool. The root problem always was/is the arrogance of the British empire. Germany was a rising industrial nation (like China today) that was stifled by the British empire, which controlled global markets and resources. When the Germans found that they couldn't outperform the British with their naval power, they concentrated on the continent. They thought a short and sharp campaign against the Russo-French military alliance before it got too strong would be a liberating coup. They read the British wrong who said one thing in public and another in private. That's how, instead of fighting just another of an endless series of European wars, the entry of the British into the fray turned the conflict into WWI, with the result that Britain lost its empire and the Germans suffered humiliation. If Germany had been accepted as an equal power, that might never have happened. But that's for the historians to decide. Today, we should not repeat the same mistake by trying to isolate China.

[Atlantis]

We just should promote globalisation. If we re-balance too much Europe will fall into the hands of people like Orbán. In which case the Brits will be proven right to have left the EU.

What's the problem with Orban? Alright, if you are a Hungarian liberal, you might be a bit frustrated. But you have to see the bigger picture. Orban did the re-balancing very nicely by closing the Balkan route. How else do you think you can keep 27 nations together? You need loads and loads of re-balancing. Re-balancing is good for you

[Albert]

Orban is a hero, akin to those who stood up to Ottoman barbaric onslaught. Beren would have just said; "The Ottoman threat is over exaggerated, so what they sacked Constantinople? Big deal".

[Beren]

What's the problem with Orban? Alright, if you are a Hungarian liberal, you might be a bit frustrated. But you have to see the bigger picture. Orban did the re-balancing very nicely by closing the Balkan route. How else do you think you can keep 27 nations together? You need loads and loads of re-balancing. Re-balancing is good for you

He chooses the Balkan route, while the Balkans choose Europe. He identifies with the Turks.

[Potemkin]

What's the problem with Orban? Alright, if you are a Hungarian liberal, you might be a bit frustrated. But you have to see the bigger picture. Orban did the re-balancing very nicely by closing the Balkan route. How else do you think you can keep 27 nations together? You need loads and loads of re-balancing. Re-balancing is good for you

The Marches of the Greater Franco-German Reich must be ruled with a fist of iron to protect the social-liberal heartlands from barbarian invasion. Margrave Orban is doing a fine job, eh Atlantis?

[Beren]

The Marches of the Greater Franco-German Reich must be ruled with a fist of iron to protect the social-liberal heartlands from barbarian invasion. Margrave Orban is doing a fine job, eh Atlantis?

He actually isn't. If migrants leave Turkey, they reach their destination sooner or later. Hence Merkel deals with Erdogan, not Orbán. Hungary can't close the Balkan route, they can bypass us as well as they can get through our fences.

[Atlantis]

deleted double post

[Atlantis]

The Marches of the Greater Franco-German Reich must be ruled with a fist of iron ...

Naah Pote, that's the way of the evil empire. It's always a mistake to think that everybody has the same predilections you do.

Hungary can't close the Balkan route, they can bypass us as well as they can get through our fences.

The Visigrad countries and Austria did close the Macedonian border, since our friends in Greece wouldn't do us the favour. Obviously there is always a way around it. There are even Afghans and Syrians arriving via Ukraine or crossing the Finnish/Russian border on bicycle. As long as the flow can be reduced to a few hundred thousands, that's really no reason to get all excited.

The Turkish/EU deal was important, but it wouldn't have been effective without closing the Macedonian border.

Why do you think Orban is so bad? Sure he's a populist and everything we hate, but I think he is also an opportunist who can do a U-turn when it suits him. Where would Hungary go without the EU? The EU can live with some dissension. There is the added benefit that these nationalist cranks lose influence in Brussels, and as I said, they might come in handy to do some re-balancing.

[Potemkin]

Naah Pote, that's the way of the evil empire. It's always a mistake to think that everybody has the same predilections you do.

[...]

Why do you think Orban is so bad? Sure he's a populist and everything we hate, but I think he is also an opportunist who can do a U-turn when it suits him. Where would Hungary go without the EU? The EU can live with some dissension. There is the added benefit that these nationalist cranks lose influence in Brussels, and as I said, they might come in handy to do some re-balancing.

Deep down, you think the way we do, Atlantis. You just don't want to admit it, not even to yourself.

[Beren]

Why do you think Orban is so bad?

I had a discussion with Ombrageux about it.

Briefly: he makes the country go backwards, not forward, while stealing much of the EU-transfers from the country through his mafia state. He said once that Azerbaijan was a model-state. He didn't exactly say it was a role model that we should follow, but it's a model-state according to him. He'd like to rule like Aliyev does, he wants to make the country be like Azerbaijan.