Is my ideology Communist? If not, what is it like? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14807019
SolarCross wrote:Destructive for the unionists and those that they duped. Princes are protectors they don't do that with hugs and kisses, if you pick a fight don't be surprised to get hurt.

You know the authorities of the USSR frequently used lethal force against workers protesting pay and conditions? But I forget it's okay when commies do it.


And also destructive to democracy.

Also, please note that it does not matter if other forms of economics also use lethal force. It does not change the fact that capitalists can be dehumanising and destructive.

You are talking about Chile. The fault in your reasoning is that you assume that because Pinochet and by extention the USA can play hardball and break your teeth that the otherside represented by Allende and the USSR won't play hard ball and break teeth. Well Allende hardly had the chance but the USSR's record is not great.


Again, you should read the declassified KGB and CIA documents.

Please note that none of this corroborates your claim.

This isn't a choice between utopia and hell it is a choice more akin to the lesser of two evils.


Well, democracy seems to be the lesser of two evils, so I have no idea why the capitalists hate it so.
#14807030
Pants-of-dog wrote:And also destructive to democracy.

Also, please note that it does not matter if other forms of economics also use lethal force. It does not change the fact that capitalists can be dehumanising and destructive.


So what go back to mud huts and running after animals with sharp sticks as if that won't be "destructive and dehumanising"?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Well, democracy seems to be the lesser of two evils, so I have no idea why the capitalists hate it so.


That's another weird generalisation. Most democracies are capitalist and the substance of people subject to it are basically pro-democracy. There are always oddballs and black sheep that hold opinions contrary to the common truisms but in the main most capitalists support democracy.

Merchants are fundamentally civilians and democracy with universal suffrage is government that is absolutely open to civilian participation and civilian petitioning, as a matter of self-interest a civilian will want democracy. Of course now and again that democracy will malfunction and produce subjectivley undesirable results for example some people in the UK now are really crying over Brexit referendum result, they wish democracy could be suspended just for this bad result, they would cheat if they could, but still they are not anti-democratic in general just anti-democratic when it doesn't produce a result they like.
#14807038
A "rightist" policy is one that is "pro-capitalist".


Your wheels came off when you posted this. This is not necessarily true. In fact, it frequently isn't. Particularly when you are referring to laissez-faire capitalism.

There are always oddballs and black sheep that hold opinions contrary to the common truisms but in the main most capitalists support democracy.


I believe this is objectively untrue. Capitalists grow where they are planted. I think the oil companies, for example, find dealing with the House of Saud quite convenient. In fact. I believe that wise capitalists find fertile markets in places where they need not negotiate with someone who must deliver on the deal. That said, democracies are legion so capitalists are want to deal with them.
#14807045
Drlee wrote:Your wheels came off when you posted this. This is not necessarily true. In fact, it frequently isn't. Particularly when you are referring to laissez-faire capitalism.


That was from POD's wiki link. It lacks nuance and of course the whole left-right wing thing is a bogus mental fiction anyway, but if you take "pro-capitalist" to mean anyone on the Keynesian-Mises spectrum then it works well enough even though it produces odd results when applied to reality. For example is the Chinese dictatorship "pro-capitalist"? It would seem to be given their actual economic policy since Deng Xiouping but then that would make the nominally communist party "right wing" which is incongrous to say the least.

There are always oddballs and black sheep that hold opinions contrary to the common truisms but in the main most capitalists support democracy.


Drlee wrote:
I believe this is objectively untrue. Capitalists grow where they are planted. I think the oil companies, for example, find dealing with the House of Saud quite convenient. In fact. I believe that wise capitalists find fertile markets in places where they need not negotiate with someone who must deliver on the deal. That said, democracies are legion so capitalists are want to deal with them.


That depends on who we are allowing into the category "capitalist" and careful before you restrict it just to a handful of super rich dudes like George Soros or some Rothschilde type because that implies that everyone else is some kind of not-capitalist or anti-capitalist which is patently not the case. I would argue to be remotely realistic we must acknowledge that a capitalist has these basic qualities:

- that private property is something that should not be banned
- that private citizens should not be unreasonably restricted from engaging in trade and investment
- making a profit is not automatically a sin and is generally a good thing

A lot of people fall into that category, most people probably. You can certainly be a state welfarist and also be capitalist, that's the Keynesian end of the spectrum but Keynes and Keynesians can't be understood to be socialist or communist by ANY stretch of the imagination.
#14807046
ggyungstalinxxo wrote:Background Info

- Political Compass - Economic: -8.5, Social: -7.18
- My F-Scale test result is 1.90 (a “whining rotter” according to the website)
- My ideal society should be created through revolution, but gradual reforms and actions must be taken over the courses of several years to get people to support the revolutionaries.
- I feel like I’m left-wing, but I’ve never really been sure where I’d be on the spectrum.

Principles and Defining Traits...


Nationalism AND socialism?

What are you.... some kinda... national... socialist? :eh:

I agree with virtually all of your positions. Welcome to the club.
#14807060
SolarCross wrote:So what go back to mud huts and running after animals with sharp sticks as if that won't be "destructive and dehumanising"?


No. That sounds dumb.

That's another weird generalisation. Most democracies are capitalist and the substance of people subject to it are basically pro-democracy. There are always oddballs and black sheep that hold opinions contrary to the common truisms but in the main most capitalists support democracy.


I think capitalists like to tell themselves that they support democracy, but at the same time, they support people like Pinochet or the Saudi monarchs.

Merchants are fundamentally civilians and democracy with universal suffrage is government that is absolutely open to civilian participation and civilian petitioning, as a matter of self-interest a civilian will want democracy. Of course now and again that democracy will malfunction and produce subjectivley undesirable results for example some people in the UK now are really crying over Brexit referendum result, they wish democracy could be suspended just for this bad result, they would cheat if they could, but still they are not anti-democratic in general just anti-democratic when it doesn't produce a result they like.


Merchants like democracy as long as it turns a profit.

Once it no longer does, it is unprofitable for merchants to support democracy.
#14807075
Saeko wrote:Nationalism AND socialism?

What are you.... some kinda... national... socialist? :eh:

I agree with virtually all of your positions. Welcome to the club.



I'm not a Nazi lol. I hate most of the things they stood for and did (concentration camps, irredentism, militarism, xenophobia, eugenics, etc). The only good things they did were the massive social programs like the Autobahn construction and the healthcare, but i hate how it was only given to "pure" Germans.
#14807104
Pants-of-dog wrote:I think capitalists like to tell themselves that they support democracy, but at the same time, they support people like Pinochet or the Saudi monarchs.

That works the other way too as in: communists like to tell themselves that they support democracy, but at the same time, they support people like Castro or Stalin. You need to think your arguments through before just saying whatever pops into your head, otherwise you just sound like a rank hypocrite.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Merchants like democracy as long as it turns a profit.

Once it no longer does, it is unprofitable for merchants to support democracy.

Everybody loves democracy until it gives unwanted results, for example those who hate Trump or those that did not want Brexit. That's how it is with people, people are self-interested and their interest in democracy is self-interested.
#14807123
SolarCross wrote:That works the other way too as in: communists like to tell themselves that they support democracy, but at the same time, they support people like Castro or Stalin. You need to think your arguments through before just saying whatever pops into your head, otherwise you just sound like a rank hypocrite.


Again, I supported Allende, who was democratically elected. You are simply assuming that I support authoritarianism because you (incorrectly) think that all communists support authoritarians.

But here is the difference. You guys are supposedly liberal democrats, or republicans if you prefer that term. Whining about how the other guys do it too does not change the fact that capitalists directly contradict the stated claims of liberal democracy or republicanism.

Everybody loves democracy until it gives unwanted results, for example those who hate Trump or those that did not want Brexit. That's how it is with people, people are self-interested and their interest in democracy is self-interested.


So you agree with me and think that merchants have no particular love for democracy.
#14807298
Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, I supported Allende, who was democratically elected. You are simply assuming that I support authoritarianism because you (incorrectly) think that all communists support authoritarians.

But here is the difference. You guys are supposedly liberal democrats, or republicans if you prefer that term. Whining about how the other guys do it too does not change the fact that capitalists directly contradict the stated claims of liberal democracy or republicanism.

Who is talking about you? I'm talking about communists in general and people in general. We are all fair weather democrats even the "fundamentalist democrats" who believe democracy has some special sacred virtue instead of really being more or less a gang mugging competition.

Who do you mean by "you guys"? For myself I am neither liberal democrat nor republican but then I am one of those oddballs who hold opinions contrary to the common truisms.
#14807539
SolarCross wrote:Who is talking about you? I'm talking about communists in general and people in general. We are all fair weather democrats even the "fundamentalist democrats" who believe democracy has some special sacred virtue instead of really being more or less a gang mugging competition.


You were talking about me when you called me a hypocrite.

But your point about how people are fair weather democrats contradicts your claim that capitalism us never dehumanising and destructive.

Who do you mean by "you guys"? For myself I am neither liberal democrat nor republican but then I am one of those oddballs who hold opinions contrary to the common truisms.


Okay, so you are also repudiating your claim that capitalists tend to support democracy, and are now claiming that capitalism is not usually linked to liberal democracies.
#14807573
Pants-of-dog wrote:But your point about how people are fair weather democrats contradicts your claim that capitalism us never dehumanising and destructive.

Non sequitur.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Okay, so you are also repudiating your claim that capitalists tend to support democracy, and are now claiming that capitalism is not usually linked to liberal democracies.

Complete mischaracterisation. Do you really need to make bald faced lies like that? What does it do for you? :?:
#14807578
SolarCross wrote:Non sequitur.


Really? How so?

Complete mischaracterisation. Do you really need to make bald faced lies like that? What does it do for you? :?:


You must have been confused by the conversation.

First you were all like "capitalism is democratic".

Then I pointed out examples of capitalism being anti-democratic.

You replied that communists do it too, (which is actually you agreeing with me but trying to deflect the conversation away from capitalists).

And I finally pointed out that even if communists do this, it does not change the fact that capitalists do it too.
#14807589
SolarCross wrote:Non sequitur.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Really? How so?


You said:
Pants-of-dog wrote:But your point about how people are fair weather democrats contradicts your claim that capitalism us never dehumanising and destructive.

My claim that "dehumanising and destructive" is not a fair and faithful to reality way to characterise capitalism ("civil and creative" would be better) is in no way contradicted by my observation that people are fair weather democrats.

Pants-of-dog wrote:You must have been confused by the conversation.

First you were all like "capitalism is democratic".

Then I pointed out examples of capitalism being anti-democratic.

You replied that communists do it too, (which is actually you agreeing with me but trying to deflect the conversation away from capitalists).

And I finally pointed out that even if communists do this, it does not change the fact that capitalists do it too.


I said:
Who do you mean by "you guys"? For myself I am neither liberal democrat nor republican but then I am one of those oddballs who hold opinions contrary to the common truisms.

And you replied:
Pants-of-dog wrote:Okay, so you are also repudiating your claim that capitalists tend to support democracy, and are now claiming that capitalism is not usually linked to liberal democracies.

:eh:
#14807593
SolarCross wrote:You said:

My claim that "dehumanising and destructive" is not a fair and faithful to reality way to characterise capitalism ("civil and creative" would be better) is in no way contradicted by my observation that people are fair weather democrats.


Actually, your claim was not that it is unfair to describe capitalism as destructive and dehumanising.

Your exact words were "Capitalism isn't dehumanizing or destructive". And then you started talking about penises.

Now, if capitalists are only fair weather democrats, they will choose anti-democratic policies when it is profitable for them. When they do this, capitalism becomes destructive and dehumanising.

I said:

And you replied:

:eh:


Are you now claiming to not be a capitalist?
#14807622
Pants-of-dog wrote:Actually, your claim was not that it is unfair to describe capitalism as destructive and dehumanising.

Your exact words were "Capitalism isn't dehumanizing or destructive". And then you started talking about penises.

I was drunk at the time and so sadly not practising rigorous legal speak that would even be proof to the wilful misinterpretation of trolling autists. By saying "Capitalism isn't destructive and dehumanising" I meant that is not a fair or faithful way to describe it. In later passages at least that should have been clear as for example I mentioned a list of things from alcohol to wrestling that could also be described as "destructive and dehumanising".

You didn't describe capitalism as "d & d" because you are overflowing with compassion for us, trying to warn us of our peril in dabbling with evil forces beyond our ken but because you are trying to sell your stupid communism on us and because you can't think of single way in which your product communism would be better than capitalism so you use negative advertising by slandering the competing product capitalism instead. That's it.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Now, if capitalists are only fair weather democrats, they will choose anti-democratic policies when it is profitable for them. When they do this, capitalism becomes destructive and dehumanising.


Not necessarily, democracy isn't a pure and virtuous thing, it is a big mob buying with paper tokens the leverage of an armed gang for use to strong arm other people usually in order to obtain some wealth from them. It is something not incomparable to aggressive begging only on vastly larger scale.

If anything democracy is the dark side of capitalism. If you get mugged and some one comes to your aid instead of letting the inevitable proceed are you to blame if the mugger gets a bloody nose and jail time?
#14807646
SolarCross wrote:I was drunk at the time and so sadly not practising rigorous legal speak that would even be proof to the wilful misinterpretation of trolling autists. By saying "Capitalism isn't destructive and dehumanising" I meant that is not a fair or faithful way to describe it. In later passages at least that should have been clear as for example I mentioned a list of things from alcohol to wrestling that could also be described as "destructive and dehumanising".


I think it is a fair way to describe it, considering the impact capitalism has had on climate change, international development, the perpetuation of colonialism, and as an impetus to war.

You didn't describe capitalism as "d & d" because you are overflowing with compassion for us, trying to warn us of our peril in dabbling with evil forces beyond our ken but because you are trying to sell your stupid communism on us and because you can't think of single way in which your product communism would be better than capitalism so you use negative advertising by slandering the competing product capitalism instead. That's it.


Pop psychology is not an argument. Even if my motives were as you describe, it would not affect the veracity of my statements.

Not necessarily, democracy isn't a pure and virtuous thing, it is a big mob buying with paper tokens the leverage of an armed gang for use to strong arm other people usually in order to obtain some wealth from them. It is something not incomparable to aggressive begging only on vastly larger scale.

If anything democracy is the dark side of capitalism. If you get mugged and some one comes to your aid instead of letting the inevitable proceed are you to blame if the mugger gets a bloody nose and jail time?


And now you seem to be arguing that democracy itself is destructive and dehumanising.
#14807677
Pants-of-dog wrote:I think it is a fair way to describe it, considering the impact capitalism has had on climate change, international development, the perpetuation of colonialism, and as an impetus to war.

If communism worked then an other-you could complain of the impact communism has on climate change, international development, colonialism and war etc. You are just mud slinging as a negative advertisment for communism, for yourself as wannabe commissar.

Let's put on our tin-foil hats and pretend that climate change is a thing, what is the impact of capitalism? For one thing civilians use fossil fuels to power cars, electrify homes and workplaces. So capitalism's impact is that is causes an economy that is technically sophisticated, cars instead of horse drawn carriages, electric light instead of candles. So if your implication is that communism will be better for climate change than capitalism you are really admitting that communism is so fucked up that it will reduce civilisation to pre-industrial levels... candles and horses.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And now you seem to be arguing that democracy itself is destructive and dehumanising.

I wouldn't use those words exactly but yes democracy is not above criticism.
#14817860
SolarCross wrote:If communism worked then another you could complain of the impact communism has on climate change, international development, colonialism and war etc. You are just mud slinging as a negative advertisment for communism, for yourself as wannabe commissar.


Again, you are incorrectly accusing me of being authoritarian, based solely on your incorrect assumption that all Marxists are authoritarian. You seem to believe this despite information that has already been presented in our discussion here.

Let's put on our tin-foil hats and pretend that climate change is a thing, what is the impact of capitalism? For one thing civilians use fossil fuels to power cars, electrify homes and workplaces. So capitalism's impact is that is causes an economy that is technically sophisticated, cars instead of horse drawn carriages, electric light instead of candles. So if your implication is that communism will be better for climate change than capitalism you are really admitting that communism is so fucked up that it will reduce civilisation to pre-industrial levels... candles and horses.


The fact that a hypothetical communist government may also cause climate change problems does not contradict my claim.

But it is interesting that you do not believe climate change is real.

I wouldn't use those words exactly but yes democracy is not above criticism.


This part is less surprising. Most capitalists have an ambivalent attitude towards democracy.

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