Does Marxist thinking create a Kakistocracy - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14857656
I'm an apolitical contributor

Bullshit.

Rhetoric Thug wrote:As a social theory, at least capitalism is biologically appropriate... Communism erects unnatural parameters round human populations

Note the logic of belief.


:lol:
#14857672
RhetoricThug wrote:Good point, the worship of a single idea or group of ideas will produce a cult of conceited knowledge (cirrhosis of thought).


That is a problem but my point was that the human element is the fatal flaw in all political and economic systems. I don't buy strict social determinism, kakistocracy is pretty much inevitable regardless of which system we implement. All systems can be gamed but some systems do mitigate our natural propensities better than others. Democracy, transparency, and rule of law are the elements which make a system successful. The soviet system had severe deficits in all three and it was those deficits that caused it to fail, not socialism.
#14857767
RhetoricThug wrote:I'm telling you that dialectical materialism is fundamentally an incorrect interpretation of Nature. Why would I want to discuss the details of an obsolete theory? You'll continue to copy & paste Marx/Engels, and I shall continue to call it a dogmatic conclusion. What's the point. :lol: Lastly, I'm an apolitical contributor, so I'm not interested in arguing over the historiography of sociopolitical phenomena. I'm interested in the underlying process, not the surface symptoms or side-effects.


Again, I didn't try to debate this with you as I think you have trouble with it. I merely debunked your argument.
By RhetoricThug
#14857906
Technology is the opiate of the masses
Religion is technology
Identity is technology
Biology is technology
Consciousnesses is the medium, you are its message

ingliz wrote:Bullshit.


Note the logic of belief.
You can post one-line quips all day, ignliz, biology will still structure itself hierarchically inside a system of consumption. In its free-market form, the capitalist economy mimics natural ecology (hence its material success). Today we have a mutated form of capitalism (obviously), a rather corrupt form, and that is a human problem. IF you study empire, this problem is not unique to capitalism, all human societies seem to go through a 'bloom cycle,' if you will... It's not so much the organization of labor and distribution of its goods and services that cause social deterioration (however convenient that idea may be for Marxists to intellectually exploit), but a crisis of ignorance- a problem with the interpretation of data. That is why Technocracy replaced Communism as the go to 'synthesis' of 20th century social theory. Historically, human societies hit a 'glass ceiling' once a society reaches its peak or golden age, and shortly thereafter it recedes and collapses, some faster than others. 'Colony collapse' is a side-effect of thought neurosis, as populations carry out/execute the conditioned program that built their society. No alerts, no warning, just a program being decoded till the society falls apart. And without a new program or a transition, excuse me- adaption of a new program, nature as a perpetual evolution scheme shall devour and bury human endeavor.

See, since technology is the only way humans can extend their thoughts and create depth inside the field of existential experience, we rely on tech/tools to reshape nature in our image. We need better technological systems to overlap and 'manage' our social data... You can see our technological systems at work today, augmenting our milieu. The new empire is not a physical empire, built on the dialectics of the past, the new empire is a noosphere empire, built upon the global mind of civilization. This new empire can rapidly pivot in any new direction (because artificially intelligent programs have the ability to reprogram their programs) because its technological real-time response systems overlap physical data inside the human environment. As we transcend the natural ebb-and-flow of ecological 'happening,' we evolve away from our space-time limitations and create a new space for the human mind to structure a new kind of society. The Great Society or Grand Control Theory, is and will continue to be, a highly involved data processor, perpetually re-engineering the inner-facets of social organization in order to avoid a physical representation/externalization of social entropy. In other-words, before the state of necrosis happens on the physical surface of society, fully integrated computerized knowledge will help humanity adapt to underlying problems or processes which cause such decay, and thus make sure we break through the 'glass ceiling' that which stopped our ancestors from reaching the stars.

Sivad wrote:That is a problem but my point was that the human element is the fatal flaw in all political and economic systems. I don't buy strict social determinism, kakistocracy is pretty much inevitable regardless of which system we implement. All systems can be gamed but some systems do mitigate our natural propensities better than others. Democracy, transparency, and rule of law are the elements which make a system successful. The soviet system had severe deficits in all three and it was those deficits that caused it to fail, not socialism.
Sure, but one may use that argument and say that the occidental system had severe deficits and it was those deficits that caused it to fail, not capitalism. In the end, it's boils down to the realm of thought, and how quickly we can change (adapt or die) our thinking in order to cope with present human problems.

The Immortal Goon wrote:Again, I didn't try to debate this with you as I think you have trouble with it. I merely debunked your argument.
Dialectical Materialism is a brash and obsolete thought program/paradigm; it doesn't include all systems of causality (physical and nonanticipative) and conveniently ignores its own shortcomings. Welcome to the 21st century.
Last edited by RhetoricThug on 31 Oct 2017 17:51, edited 1 time in total.
#14857911
RhetoricThug wrote:Dialectical Materialism is a brash and obsolete thought program; it doesn't include all systems of causality (physical and nonanticipative) and conveniently ignores its own shortcomings. Welcome to the 21st cenutry.


Are you going to actually write about it, or just keep ignoring anything I have to write and instead make big brash declarations?

I'm almost tempted to move this into the "Marxism isn't the Answer" thread, a museum of washed up criticisms. But you ran out of things to say on Post 2. Truly impressive...
#14857912
Simulacrum is as simulacrum does
The Immortal Goon wrote:Are you going to actually write about it, or just keep ignoring anything I have to write and instead make big brash declarations?

I'm almost tempted to move this into the "Marxism isn't the Answer" thread, a museum of washed up criticisms. But you ran out of things to say on Post 2. Truly impressive...
TIG, YOU didn't write anything, you're miming Marx/Engels. If I want second-hand thoughts I'd read an encyclopaedia. You're the Marxist program, a side-effect of the dogma delusion. I'll continue to compose threads in the communism sub-reality forum criticizing Marxism's lack of causal competency. Tell me, how does Marxist theory deal with genome editing? When the inmates run the insane asylum will they edit out bourgeoisie genes? Oh, that's right, 'bourgeoisie' is a fictional characterization of a class of people, a flexible polysemous, unrelated to genetic code... A kind of political misrepresentation of biological happening, constructed for a revolutionary comic-book strip called Das Kapital. Give me one example, just one, that can support the usefulness of Marxist thought as a form of government. I'm waiting. REAL evidence suggests it does create a Kakistocracy.
#14857932
RhetoricThug wrote:Simulacrum is as simulacrum does
TIG, YOU didn't write anything, you're miming Marx/Engels. If I want second-hand thoughts I'd read an encyclopaedia. You're the Marxist program, a side-effect of the dogma delusion. I'll continue to compose threads in the communism sub-reality forum criticizing Marxism's lack of causal competency. Tell me, how does Marxist theory deal with genome editing? When the inmates run the insane asylum will they edit out bourgeoisie genes? Oh, that's right, 'bourgeoisie' is a fictional characterization of a class of people, a flexible polysemous, unrelated to genetic code... A kind of political misrepresentation of biological happening, constructed for a revolutionary comic-book strip called Das Kapital. Give me one example, just one, that can support the usefulness of Marxist thought as a form of government. I'm waiting. REAL evidence suggests it does create a Kakistocracy.


Ignore everything that I wrote it is!

If nothing else, it shows the shallowness of your criticism.

Incidentally, regarding this:

I'll continue to compose threads in the communism sub-reality forum criticizing Marxism's lack of causal competency.


If you continue to refuse to engage anyone, I'll just dump such nonsense into a megathread so we can safely ignore your rambling.
By Sivad
#14857934
RhetoricThug wrote:Sure, but one may use that argument and say that the occidental system had severe deficits and it was those deficits that caused it to fail, not capitalism.


Capitalism is a raging success, it performs exactly as intended. The problem with capitalism isn't that it doesn't work, it's that it doesn't work in the interest of the common good. The problem with capitalism is that it works all too well. The problem with socialism is that it can't fend off the capitalist onslaught and still remain socialist.
#14857937
Sivad wrote:Capitalism is a raging success, it performs exactly as intended. The problem with capitalism isn't that it doesn't work, it's that it doesn't work in the interest of the common good. The problem with capitalism is that it works all too well. The problem with socialism is that it can't fend off the capitalist onslaught and still remain socialist.
Yeah, like I said, Capitalism mimics ecology. Socialism is not biologically appropriate, it tries to intellectually/politically redefine hierarchical systems of biological competition. Marxists are under the impression that they can set a revolution in motion by manipulating the efficient cause of physical reality, namely the production/distribution of goods and services. It is wishful thinking, and it will produce a Kakistocracy, because the so-called 'proletariat' is not the proprietor of technological invention/discovery. Of course, a Marxist will say that the 'bourgeoisie' exploit the proprietor of technological invention/discovery by default in a capitalist economy, conveniently ignoring the benefits of a capitalist finance system. The corporate egregore or nonentities (despite the legal fiction saying otherwise) that manifest around finance pose more of a threat to the proprietor of technological invention than the capital itself. Oddly enough, Marxists would like to see one centralized egregore take the place of competing egregores, ensuring that a dictatorship of useless eaters would entertain the facade of state sponsored social welfare. Instead of competing predators, the communists want one super-predator gobbling up every aspect of human energy (physical, social, technological, etc). Once imprisoned by bureaucracy, the passion of invention slows; even if material abundance can be achieved (post-scarcity, etc)- it will not be maintained, because abundance creates psycho-social apathy.

I'm waiting for TIG to explain to me why Marxist thinking doesn't create a Kakistocracy. :|
Last edited by RhetoricThug on 31 Oct 2017 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
By Sivad
#14857939
RhetoricThug wrote:Yeah, like said, Capitalism mimics ecology. Socialism is not biologically appropriate, it tries to intellectually/politically redefine hierarchical systems of biological evolution.


I'm not sure I understand all that, but if you're saying that we're a race of assholes and capitalism is the default for assholes and the epitome of assholism, then I agree.

I'm waiting for TIG to explain to me why Marxist thinking doesn't create a Kakistocracy.


Marxist thinking is just a critique of capitalism, are you saying there are no valid criticisms of capitalism?
#14857942
Sivad wrote:I'm not sure I understand all that, but if you're saying that we're a race of assholes and capitalism is the default for assholes and the epitome of assholism, then I agree.
Sure :lol:



Marxist thinking is just a critique of capitalism, are you saying there are no valid criticisms of capitalism?
Yep, and Marxists think just because you're anti-Marxism you must be a Capitalist. Binary thought structures tend to perpetuate tribal conflict. Marxism is invalid because it ignores the basic principles of causality and automatically breathes life into Capitalism by existing alongside it as its opposite. What we need is a new 'beyond good and evil,' but in the form of 'beyond left and right,' so we can move away from conventional binary thought structures. Luckily, quantum computers can utilize holistic systems analysis and go beyond classical dialectics. Marxists, like our primitive ancestors, think in terms of 'us vs them.' Very primitive indeed.
Last edited by RhetoricThug on 31 Oct 2017 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
By Sivad
#14857955
RhetoricThug wrote: Binary thought structures tend to perpetuate tribal conflict.


Dialectic is tripartite, binary thought structures tend to generate sublation. Δίκη ἔρις.
#14857956
Revelation of the revolution
Sivad wrote:Dialectic is tripartite, binary thought structures tend to generate sublation. Δίκη ἔρις.
Sure, back to synthesis... But the synthesis is theoretical, a cognitive abstraction. Meanwhile, the dialectic is physical, 'revolution' through tribal bloodshed. Marxists use sublation to justify the future of their dogmatic discourse. Will dialectic materialism truly lead capitalism to communism, or is that the scientific fiction created by a Marxist for a Marxist?
#14858559
The Immortal Goon wrote:Giant image, instead of constructive dialogue
You know, I refrained from accusing you of using that same fallacy, since Marxists insist 'real communism' has never been tried. If you follow the road of oppression, proof lies with bloodshed, and anti-Marxists can cite a century's worth of historical proof, providing us with educational evidence. Evidence that suggests that Marxist thinking uses the Kakistocratic model for its propaganda radicalized peasant revolution, and shortly thereafter, the Communist state turns into a kleptocracy.

Any Dogma delusion will always try to fit its 'stars' into square shaped holes. You must work with nature, not against it. Marxism is doomed to repeat its failures. Cultural Marxism mixed with Technocratic policy (look at China) may be your only viable option, because technology is the opiate of the masses. The smart-phone revolution was far more successful than any Marxist revolution. :|
#14858573
RhetoricThug wrote:You know, I refrained from accusing you of using that same fallacy, since Marxists insist 'real communism' has never been tried.


I'm guessing you refrained since nobody in this thread made that argument to begin with. Good job!

If you follow the road of oppression, proof lies with bloodshed, and anti-Marxists can cite a century's worth of historical proof, providing us with educational evidence.


And we also have evidence of capitalism causing several century's worth of historical proof of bloodshed and genocide. But one-upping each other on such a crass basis would be pretty lame.

We could, however, engage in the dynamics of each system--but you have refused to do so after many attempts to do so. Instead, you ignore every attempt to engage and demand surface level childish arguments are the only thing that matter. You can read through the thread yourself.

Evidence that suggests that Marxist thinking uses the Kakistocratic model for its propaganda radicalized peasant revolution, and shortly thereafter, the Communist state turns into a kleptocracy.


You have provided no evidence. What you alluded to as evidence was quickly dismissed and you refused to engage in it, instead copying-and-pasting something completely superfluous that you don't seem to have understood anyway. And you refused to engage in that too.

Any Dogma delusion will always try to fit its 'stars' into square shaped holes. You must work with nature, not against it. Marxism is doomed to repeat its failures. Cultural Marxism mixed with Technocratic policy (look at China) may be your only viable option, because technology is the opiate of the masses. The smart-phone revolution was far more successful than any Marxist revolution. :|


1. Cultural Marxism is a conspiracy theory.

2. Technocracy does not necessarily equate to a capitalist mode of production.
#14858732
Cultural Marxism is the incremental indoctrination of the youth through propaganda and psychological-social archetypes (behaviors). This is kind of indoctrination works off the Pavlovian, Skinner box, conditioning of 20th century behaviorism. Of course, behaviorism is an advanced science now, so cultural Marxism is now tritely familiar, full of popular-culture-conceptions. The article you quote/link, frame the perspective of cultural Marxism as a byproduct of right-wing paranoia. :lol: That is a misconception, cultural Marxism is a critical thinking application, used for subversive behavior modification. Marxist tropes use popular culture to dispel or excite popular opinion. Unfortunately, the far left is lost in the ether, so is the far right, they are smoke and mirrors, playing word games... Trying to break the common peoples will power, or at least influence it. Incrementalism, if you will, is a subtle way of nudging the general populace's perception of reality.

What kind of pseudo-intellectual platform do you stand on?

2. Technocracy does not necessarily equate to a capitalist mode of production.

Yes, because Capitalism and Marxism will be simultaneously destroyed once the machines obtain control over our biological world. Why are you stuck in the 19th century, TIG? If you study genetics, you would see how influential technology can be, considering the field of epigenetics especially. You're under the impression that nature produces conclusions... It doesn't produce conclusions. Life is a process, and the conclusion is your ego's interpretation of existential phenomena. If you/we think Marxism is 'real,' it will become real. If you project capitalism as the dominant operating system, it will dominate the system of human consciousness. However, We're biological beings, right? Therefore, the social theory that mimics biological happening will naturally achieve primacy over the other social theories that wish to change nature to its intellectual liking or arbitrary optimal conditions. In order to achieve pure Marxism, an entire body of beings must reject their biological urges and succumb to a bureaucratic lobotomization. Such an unethical outcome would permanently hinder the human race from evolving past the conceited conclusion Marxism produces.

Capitalism is a problem today because it has removed ethics from its operation. Now, I'm not calling for religious, or prejudice ethics; I'm calling for scientific ethics, a form of ethics that says- 'hey, stop creating cancer causing chemicals just because you can make a quick (reductionist) profit,' or 'you really should stop buying ABC-XYZ product, because it is harming your neighbors and the planet,' etc. The problem with free market capitalism is not necessarily its finance system, it's the unscientific and unethical profit margins which arise through collective organizations we call corpse-iterations. Corporations are whispered into existence byway of legal doctrine. Corporations engage in unethical profit chase. The fictitious super-entities, or egregores (collective thought forms), create unnatural capital. See, individuals, proprietors, may not be 'potent' enough to destabilize a populace and its culture, but corporations can and will decimate biological environments just to stack contemporary currency.

Technocracy is the answer to the never ending cusp of change. For technology is the present incarnate, it only knows tomorrow, yet it's the sum of yesterday. When a social technology overlaps our physical/biological environment, causality happens all at once, and we're immediately involved in the technological translation of 'being human.' Communism will never occur through the Marxist critique of capitalism. Communism will occur through the technological reinterpretation of mankind. Again, the smartphone revolution was far more peaceful and successful than any Marxist revolution. :borg:
#14858810
RhetoricThug wrote:Cultural Marxism is the incremental indoctrination of the youth through propaganda and psychological-social archetypes (behaviors). This is kind of indoctrination works off the Pavlovian, Skinner box, conditioning of 20th century behaviorism. Of course, behaviorism is an advanced science now, so cultural Marxism is now tritely familiar, full of popular-culture-conceptions. The article you quote/link, frame the perspective of cultural Marxism as a byproduct of right-wing paranoia. :lol: That is a misconception, cultural Marxism is a critical thinking application, used for subversive behavior modification. Marxist tropes use popular culture to dispel or excite popular opinion. Unfortunately, the far left is lost in the ether, so is the far right, they are smoke and mirrors, playing word games... Trying to break the common peoples will power, or at least influence it. Incrementalism, if you will, is a subtle way of nudging the general populace's perception of reality.

What kind of pseudo-intellectual platform do you stand on?


I'm aware of the conspiracy theory that you're describing.

If you didn't like the Guardian laughing at how stupid your childish conspiracy theory is, here are some other sources of varying degrees of seriousness:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... m-catching

https://newrepublic.com/article/144317/ ... al-marxism

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/78mn ... -alt-right

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfu ... acy_theory

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cultural-marxism

It's all horseshit. But it sounds like you aren't even really that sure what it is. You should at least be educated on whatever dumb conspiracy theory you insist on swallowing to try and appear more knowledgable than you are.

Yes, because Capitalism and Marxism will be simultaneously destroyed once the machines obtain control over our biological world. Why are you stuck in the 19th century, TIG? If you study genetics, you would see how influential technology can be, considering the field of epigenetics especially. You're under the impression that nature produces conclusions... It doesn't produce conclusions. Life is a process, and the conclusion is your ego's interpretation of existential phenomena. If you/we think Marxism is 'real,' it will become real. If you project capitalism as the dominant operating system, it will dominate the system of human consciousness. However, We're biological beings, right? Therefore, the social theory that mimics biological happening will naturally achieve primacy over the other social theories that wish to change nature to its intellectual liking or arbitrary optimal conditions. In order to achieve pure Marxism, an entire body of beings must reject their biological urges and succumb to a bureaucratic lobotomization. Such an unethical outcome would permanently hinder the human race from evolving past the conceited conclusion Marxism produces.

...Technocracy is the answer to the never ending cusp of change. For technology is the present incarnate, it only knows tomorrow, yet it's the sum of yesterday. When a social technology overlaps our physical/biological environment, causality happens all at once, and we're immediately involved in the technological translation of 'being human.' Communism will never occur through the Marxist critique of capitalism. Communism will occur through the technological reinterpretation of mankind. Again, the smartphone revolution was far more peaceful and successful than any Marxist revolution. :borg:


I'm not opposed to technocracy, which I suspect this poor writing is attempting to convey.

Trotsky wrote: "Technocracy" can come true only under communism, when the dead hands of private property rights and private profits are lifted from your industrial system. The most daring proposals of the Hoover commission on standardization and rationalization will seem childish


The Cosmonauts were supposed to be the "New Socialist Man," and they called it Domination of Automata. A process where machines would have increasing power. We socialists are down with technocracy. We have been for more than a century. You'll excuse me if I'm not impressed that you are going to try skip what we have done because you have feelings:

Capitalism is a problem today because it has removed ethics from its operation. Now, I'm not calling for religious, or prejudice ethics; I'm calling for scientific ethics, a form of ethics that says- 'hey, stop creating cancer causing chemicals just because you can make a quick (reductionist) profit,' or 'you really should stop buying ABC-XYZ product, because it is harming your neighbors and the planet,' etc. The problem with free market capitalism is not necessarily its finance system, it's the unscientific and unethical profit margins which arise through collective organizations we call corpse-iterations. Corporations are whispered into existence byway of legal doctrine. Corporations engage in unethical profit chase. The fictitious super-entities, or egregores (collective thought forms), create unnatural capital. See, individuals, proprietors, may not be 'potent' enough to destabilize a populace and its culture, but corporations can and will decimate biological environments just to stack contemporary currency.


I'm sure your personal feelings about capitalist policy will grind everything you don't like to a halt.
#14858858
The Immortal Goon wrote:I'm aware of the conspiracy theory that you're describing.

If you didn't like the Guardian laughing at how stupid your childish conspiracy theory is, here are some other sources of varying degrees of seriousness:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... m-catching

https://newrepublic.com/article/144317/ ... al-marxism

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/78mn ... -alt-right

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfu ... acy_theory

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cultural-marxism

It's all horseshit. But it sounds like you aren't even really that sure what it is. You should at least be educated on whatever dumb conspiracy theory you insist on swallowing to try and appear more knowledgable than you are.
Information warfare is not a conspiracy theory (but you know this). Check out Yuri Bezmenov and KGB psychological warfare. Cultural Marxism is not a meme, it's a subversive tactic used to covertly/overtly modify a foreign nations milieu. I suppose Cultural Marxism is a misnomer.



The Cosmonauts were supposed to be the "New Socialist Man," and they called it Domination of Automata. A process where machines would have increasing power. We socialists are down with technocracy. We have been for more than a century. You'll excuse me if I'm not impressed that you are going to try skip what we have done because you have feelings:
Dude, all humans have feelings, stop being a weirdo. You act as if you're a major player in the socialist scene :lol: ... Sure, socialists are down with Technocracy, cool beans. I'm talking about today, TIG. The 4th Industrial revolution is about biological evolution, not political revolution. You're seeing things from 'one side,' because of your dogmatic persistence, yet this evolution is bigger than our petty politics.






I'm sure your personal feelings about capitalist policy will grind everything you don't like to a halt.
How rude, that is not constructive criticism, TIG. :roll: Capitalism will be absorbed by highly evolved data processors... If you look at Wallstreet, or global stock markets, computers augmented capitalism a long time ago. Technology is the main driver of change in human society. Eventually, our human systems will be out of our control. Technology will obsolesce conventional bureaucracy and transhumanism will replace humanism. Can you say 'artificially intelligent public relations campaign?' Machines will not be socialists, they will not be communists, they will not be capitalists... They will be machines motivated by quantum computations and real-time data analysis. Machines will build new social theories and new societies. Solutions to problems beyond our comprehension.

The way of the future, Tig
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