Combating Fascism The Peaceful Constructive Way - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15011249
@Pants-of-dog

Pants-of-Dog wrote:Why exactly should we treat fascists in a peaceful and constructive manner, when fascists want to either make me, my family, and my friends into second class citizens or corpses?


When you resort to violence, nobody wins. All you are doing is creating more problems and making things worse. The idea, is to solve problems and make things better.
#15011262
Julian658 wrote:These days most fascist are on the left.
Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.


None of these are fascist.

"Fascist" does not mean "everyone you disagree with".

Poland and Hungary have democratically elected right wingers like America, Italy, and Brazil. That is not fascism.


Irrelevant.

------------------

Politics_Observer wrote:When you resort to violence, nobody wins. All you are doing is creating more problems and making things worse. The idea, is to solve problems and make things better.


This is untrue.

Shooting the Nazis solved problems and made things better.

And compromising with fascists directly endangers me and my loved ones.
#15011265
Pants-of-dog wrote:None of these are fascist.

"Fascist" does not mean "everyone you disagree with".



Irrelevant.

------------------



This is untrue.

Shooting the Nazis solved problems and made things better.

And compromising with fascists directly endangers me and my loved ones.


Your beloved country China is fascist. You cannot get around that one. Of course, now you will deny you love China.
#15011266
@Pants-of-dog

Pants-of-Dog wrote:This is untrue.

Shooting the Nazis solved problems and made things better.

And compromising with fascists directly endangers me and my loved ones.


I don't know man, talking to some of the World War II vets or listening to some of their interviews, even they say that the "good war" of World War II wasn't a "good war." War is just stupidity man. I would like to try to find a better way of solving problems. You know, you would think mankind would learn something from these wars but it doesn't always seem so. I like to resolve problems in more constructive ways that doesn't involve violence. I guess we all have a right to self defense if you come under attack and I would defend myself too if I came under attack, but I also know that I prefer to simply resolve problems without the use of violence. Violence sucks man. I know I sound like a peacenik but hey man, from my experience it doesn't solve anything.
#15011270
Richard Spencer ceased to be the face of the American nazi movement when he got punched. Punching nazis works. As an ideology they worship power, and demonstrating that a nazi leader is not anywhere near as powerful or authoritative as he pretends to be will force his followers and contemporaries to abandon or, more often, turn on them in an attempt to steal their base.
#15011280
SpecialOlympian wrote:Richard Spencer ceased to be the face of the American nazi movement when he got punched. Punching nazis works. As an ideology they worship power, and demonstrating that a nazi leader is not anywhere near as powerful or authoritative as he pretends to be will force his followers and contemporaries to abandon or, more often, turn on them in an attempt to steal their base.


Spencer is the leader of a micro movement in the US. I understand this gives a target to the left wingers.
Furthermore the Spencer issue is a reaction to the relentless identity politics and intersectionality in the left.
Telling white straight men they are worthless POS 24/7 does not work. It simply creates white identity politics.
Violence is not the answer.

Your form of tribalism will take us to a race war. That is how tribalism works.
I suspect white people would win that war and they seem to aways win war conflicts.
Stop the hate and the violence. The more violence you use the more you will receive in return.
#15011285
Julian658 wrote:Your beloved country China is fascist. You cannot get around that one. Of course, now you will deny you love China.


China was not one of the countries you mentioned, China also is not fascist, and my feelings about China are irrelevant.

——————————-

Politics_Observer wrote:I don't know man, talking to some of the World War II vets or listening to some of their interviews, even they say that the "good war" of World War II wasn't a "good war." War is just stupidity man. I would like to try to find a better way of solving problems. You know, you would think mankind would learn something from these wars but it doesn't always seem so. I like to resolve problems in more constructive ways that doesn't involve violence. I guess we all have a right to self defense if you come under attack and I would defend myself too if I came under attack, but I also know that I prefer to simply resolve problems without the use of violence. Violence sucks man. I know I sound like a peacenik but hey man, from my experience it doesn't solve anything.


I agree with everything here. And this is a great argument for why we should try this approach in general.

But why should we use this particular approach with fascism specifically? How is fascism particularly susceptible to this sort of approach?

As far as I can tell, militant approaches do tend to work well with fascism.

And because of the basic tenets of fascism, such as ethnic nationalism and state corporatism, any compromise with fascists would lead to a decline in freedom and equality for my loved ones.
#15011291
Julian658 wrote:Spencer is the leader of a micro movement in the US. I understand this gives a target to the left wingers.
Furthermore the Spencer issue is a reaction to the relentless identity politics and intersectionality in the left.
Telling white straight men they are worthless POS 24/7 does not work. It simply creates white identity politics.
Violence is not the answer.

Your form of tribalism will take us to a race war. That is how tribalism works.
I suspect white people would win that war and they seem to aways win war conflicts.
Stop the hate and the violence. The more violence you use the more you will receive in return.


You seem like a pretty well adjusted guy with no persecution complex created entirely by race baiting right wing weirdo talking heads.

Frankly I would be hard pressed to turn the television on right now, to nearly any channel outside of a few specifically catering to minority groups (NHK, the local Armenian channel, Black Entertainment Television, Telemundo, etc.), and not find a cast that is majority white, straight, and male that presents the world (fictional or not) from a white, straight, and male perspective.

It seems to me that it's the paranoiacs such as yourself who are itching for the race war and inventing fictions to justify it. Calm down, straight white men will continue to run this country and occupy the vast majority of positions of power for the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean they will actually do anything to help you, but I presume that's not the part you're concerned with.
#15011297
@Pants-of-dog

If a fascist were to directly attack me then sure, I will defend myself, however, I am not going to run out and attack fascists either even though I disagree with them. It's better to sit down and talk to them when possible. Maybe they'll come around and stop being fascists. Maybe not. But as long as they are not attacking me I am not going to go out and start a fight. I might not like them but I am not going to go out of my way and go pick a fight with them either.
#15011307
@Pants-of-dog

Pants-of-dog wrote:The thing about fascism is that it is inherently about attacking the rights of people like me and my family.


I guess that's between you and the fascists then. If you want to go out there attacking fascists then that's on you. Personally, I would not want fascists to have political power, I would have a big problem with that. But I am not going to go looking for trouble. You're not going to change everybody's mind and I am not so sure going out and attacking fascists for being fascists is going to do any good. Their are black nationalists who think I am the enemy for being white, but I am not going to go out looking for trouble with black nationalists just because they think that way. I am sure I am not going to change their mind or make them magically disappear either if I were to go out and decide to declare war on them. That's just not how things work.
#15011308
Politics_Observer wrote:@SSDR

We obviously don't agree on many many things. I have been to some former communist countries in some years after the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe while serving in the US Army and from what I gathered the standard of living wasn't very good under communism. Now, these former communist countries were not the former East Germany mind you, but one only has to look at how many people sought to leave East Germany for West Germany during the Cold War to make a judgement call on whether communism was really a success in East Germany.

You tell a very different story from what I gathered about communism while serving in some of the formerly communist countries in Eastern Europe with the army. Human trafficking was a problem in Eastern Europe in the aftermath of the collapse of communism but didn't seem the standard of living was all that great under communism in the former communist countries of Eastern Europe. Plus the communists didn't exactly value freedom according to the people I talked with who were citizens of these countries and had to live under the communists.

I came to appreciate the importance and value of American capitalism while serving abroad in these former communist countries. Of course you might not have been around or really remember either when communism was in place in East Germany and Eastern Europe. American capitalism is not perfect but I'll take American capitalism any day over any sort of socialist or communist system.


Human trafficking was a problem after socialism collapsed because small market capitalism and various mobs dominated the majority of the economics. Crime was VERY high. But you mentioning human trafficking has nothing to do with socialism. It depends on what definition of "freedom" you are using?

Some freedoms are VERY BAD. Graffiti, crime, prostitution, rave culture, arson crimes, rape, gang violence, liberal social decay, and people being loud and annoying as fuck are very bad.

@Julian658,

Incorrect. Fascism and socialism are very different.

Fascism rises when capitalism decays. Fascists use fascist politics to conserve the capitalist mode of production (capitalism). Fascists do not like free market capitalism, but they lack real consciousness, that's why they get into fascism. They blame everything they hate, rather than capitalism, because that was how most fascists were raised. Fascists are kind of like hard minded conservatives who are angry, and disappointed with capitalism.

Socialism is an economic policy. "Communism" is when society reaches liberation of their hearts that uses socialist economics. Italy under Benito Mussolini was not socialist because it conserved the concept of value, and defended the family institution.
#15011322
Politics_Observer wrote:I guess that's between you and the fascists then. If you want to go out there attacking fascists then that's on you.


Since I never claimed that, I am just going to ignore it.

Personally, I would not want fascists to have political power, I would have a big problem with that. But I am not going to go looking for trouble. You're not going to change everybody's mind and I am not so sure going out and attacking fascists for being fascists is going to do any good. Their are black nationalists who think I am the enemy for being white, but I am not going to go out looking for trouble with black nationalists just because they think that way. I am sure I am not going to change their mind or make them magically disappear either if I were to go out and decide to declare war on them. That's just not how things work.


Yes, you mentioned all of this several times, and I already mentioned that i agree with it.

I then pointed out how this is fine in general but not for fascism in particular.

I then asked you if there was something about fascism in particular that made it more amenable to this approach. You have yet to answer that.

I also pointed out that fascism is particular in that it is inherently about attacking the rights of others, often with violence. You have yet to address that.

I also pointed out that militant reactions have historically worked well against fascism. You also have yet to address that.

And if you wish, you can also explain how it would benefit me to compromise in any way with fascists.
#15011328
@Pants-of-dog

Pants-of-a-Dog wrote:I then pointed out how this is fine in general but not for fascism in particular.

I then asked you if there was something about fascism in particular that made it more amenable to this approach. You have yet to answer that.

I also pointed out that fascism is particular in that it is inherently about attacking the rights of others, often with violence. You have yet to address that.

I also pointed out that militant reactions have historically worked well against fascism. You also have yet to address that.

And if you wish, you can also explain how it would benefit me to compromise in any way with fascists.



Hey man you do whatever you want to do. You seem to have this all figured out. I'm not going to get in your way as long as you are not messing with me and my family. But bear in mind, that most people have families, even those fascists do.
#15011337
SpecialOlympian wrote:You seem like a pretty well adjusted guy with no persecution complex created entirely by race baiting right wing weirdo talking heads.

Frankly I would be hard pressed to turn the television on right now, to nearly any channel outside of a few specifically catering to minority groups (NHK, the local Armenian channel, Black Entertainment Television, Telemundo, etc.), and not find a cast that is majority white, straight, and male that presents the world (fictional or not) from a white, straight, and male perspective.

It seems to me that it's the paranoiacs such as yourself who are itching for the race war and inventing fictions to justify it. Calm down, straight white men will continue to run this country and occupy the vast majority of positions of power for the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean they will actually do anything to help you, but I presume that's not the part you're concerned with.


The victimhood coalition created by intersectionality constantly puts down white straight men. Sooner or later the negativity will cause that group to feel victimized and hence they will also enter into the realm of identity politics. The left is playing with fire by playing the race identity game. That is what put Trump on the White House. And I am afraid the left will go even farther left and put Trump in there for another four years. Can you imagine the last year of Trump as a lame duck POTUS when he is in his late 70's? It will be hell for the left!

If the population is majority white then most people you see in the street will be white. Why does that bother you?
#15011338
Politics_Observer wrote:@Pants-of-dog



When you resort to violence, nobody wins. All you are doing is creating more problems and making things worse. The idea, is to solve problems and make things better.


Violence doesn't solve problems, but I think it's sometimes necessary to allow people with solutions implement theirs.
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