If fascists won World War 2 it would have saved lives - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15094792
fascism was created to find my religious Alliance against Bolsheviks as they sought to efface God from the hearts of mankind. When the Soviets backed Communists in the Spanish Civil War the only people that saved Western Europe from communist aggression were Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini who propped up Francisco Franco , the greatest Ally during the Cold War, whose regime lasted until 1978 and brought Spain to her golden years. Benito Mussolini said that if the British and French would have Allied themselves with Franco, he would have Allied himself with the British and French. Mussolini did not like Adolf Hitler any more than Winston Churchill liked his ally Joseph Stalin. He saw Hitler as a lesser of two evils and a useful idiot in defending the world from Red revolutions, soviet-backed Civil Wars, and a Soviet Union stretching across the entire continent. Mussolini did not know about the extermination of the Jews, and she specifically thought that eight off Hitler rounding up Jews was because of the disproportionate amount of secular Jews who were allying themselves with Bolsheviks. A flood of propaganda from Germany convinced Mussolini that Hitler was only trying to defend Western Europe from becoming communist. He thought that the two of them were going to form an anti Bolshevik block, a 20th century Roman Empire that resembled what Hitler helps him accomplish in Spain which became an absolute monarchy and theocracy under Franco. Benito Mussolini was only making the decision that any Christian in their right mind would have made who desires prayer in schools, making abortion illegal, outlawing pornography, and censoring the entertainment industry so that you cannot hear even the f word in the media. Benito believed he had to choose one side or the other, and Italy was exhausted from the Spanish Civil War and the conquest of Ethiopia, no match for the German war machine that was threatening to invade Italy. Pale and shaking, he put his hands on the shoulder of Rachel and said, we must consider the future of Italy, Hitler will soon be at our gates, France has been conquered and only Great Britain is left. If you think I'm siding with the weak British, you're crazy. I would have joined the Allies if they would have declared war on Hitler when I stalled his annexation of Austria or if they would have helped me keep Spain a Catholic country. Nazi Germany is the world's only hope for an anti-communist anti-bolshevik Defense Force. Hitler's military has Catholic chaplains, and its soldiers have Bibles, miraculous medals, crucifixes, and rosaries. The Soviet Union has people killed for possessing those items. For the future of Italy , for our children we must choose this necessary useful evil.
#15094796
Benito Mussolini did not know about the extermination of Jews. Hitler tried to keep that a secret even from his own people. There was German propaganda flooding Italy that compared concentration camps to re-education Bible camps and pointing out that the Jewish talmud says Jesus is boiling in excrement and the son of a w****. Mussolini loved Orthodox Jews and created the most Jewish friendly Catholic theocracy in the history of the world where Jews could have the highest ranks of the fascist party, and he tried to employee Jewish people specifically choosing that's his only dentist would be an orthodox Jew when there were plenty of Catholic dentist and his home was open to Jewish children and he never criticized them for their ethnicity or told them to accept Jesus as Lord and savior. I do not agree with what Mussolini did when he was a grandfather after 1939 and he instituted anti-semitic laws to please the Germans. What I will say, to be fair, he and Rachel did not put a lot of those laws into practice and did what they could to save the lives of Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. Many Jews that fled to Italy were given fake passports and taken to other countries. The Nazis were very upset with the Italians for not rounding up Jews. Mussolini thought it would be better for the Jews in Italy if he sided with Adolf Hitler and seized some of the land rather than let it fall to the Nazis. Otherwise, there would have been a Nazi occupation of Italy and it would have been a lot worse for the Jews. Benito Mussolini wanted to found the nation of Israel for the Jews after his conquest of Ethiopia. Mussolini was a Zionist
#15094799
The title is slightly misleading. Sounds more like "If Fascists won WW2 with Western Allies it would have Saved Lives"

My take is that I have serious doubts, although not outright disagreement.

WW2 is really WW2. Focusing it on Europe isn't the full picture. I found it funny that, despite fighting United States the most, Japan was often forgotten in such discussions. Italy probably did not worth that much to the Nazis in that sense.

When Hitler took power, Japan already was invading China. Before the war actually broke out and Japan conquered Nanking, China was in close cooperation with the Nazis. After Nanking fell, the Nazis seemed to be convinced that Japan was the more powerful guy there so chose to cooperate with them instead. This inevitably made them adversaries to the West and the Commies simultaneously.

Assume that the Nazis still went to war, I do not think Italy changing camps would have solved this, so Commies would still win against Nazis and things afterwards (the fall of the East and the South to Commies) would still happen.

Another possibility was that without Italy, the Nazis were defeated even more quickly in Europe, and it could be argued that lives in Europe would be saved. However, I am not able to deduce how the East and the Commies would fare in this scenario. For example, I do not see Stalin would prosper as in our timeline, nor he would fall along with the defeated Nazis. Maybe it would be status quo during the good ol' interwar years.

P.S. The OP not employing proper formatting in his posts raises quite some suspicion from me.
#15094818
@Spider-Man

defending the world from Red revolutions

Mixed messages.

You may want to consider changing your avatar - Charlie Chaplin was a communist.


:|
#15094822
ingliz wrote:@Spider-Man


Mixed messages.

You may want to consider changing your avatar - Charlie Chaplin was a communist.


:|
he was accused of being a communist. I don't believe he was. It it was revealed to myself by divine inspiration that he was a real Jew, he played Adolf Hitler so well, Mussolini liked him, and originally Adolf Hitler like him which is why his mustache inspired his. Either way, Chaplin has been fully enlightened. He is no longer a friend of the Bolsheviks. The reason so many Jews sided with the Bolsheviks was because they had a history of being persecuted by Christians and communists were pretending to be their friends. Communist are only friends with secular Jews. The Soviet Union armed the Arabs to cast the nation of Israel into the sea. Their true colors eventually showed when Israel became a cold war Nation
#15094825
Patrickov wrote:The title is slightly misleading. Sounds more like "If Fascists won WW2 with Western Allies it would have Saved Lives"

My take is that I have serious doubts, although not outright disagreement.

WW2 is really WW2. Focusing it on Europe isn't the full picture. I found it funny that, despite fighting United States the most, Japan was often forgotten in such discussions. Italy probably did not worth that much to the Nazis in that sense.

When Hitler took power, Japan already was invading China. Before the war actually broke out and Japan conquered Nanking, China was in close cooperation with the Nazis. After Nanking fell, the Nazis seemed to be convinced that Japan was the more powerful guy there so chose to cooperate with them instead. This inevitably made them adversaries to the West and the Commies simultaneously.

Assume that the Nazis still went to war, I do not think Italy changing camps would have solved this, so Commies would still win against Nazis and things afterwards (the fall of the East and the South to Commies) would still happen.

Another possibility was that without Italy, the Nazis were defeated even more quickly in Europe, and it could be argued that lives in Europe would be saved. However, I am not able to deduce how the East and the Commies would fare in this scenario. For example, I do not see Stalin would prosper as in our timeline, nor he would fall along with the defeated Nazis. Maybe it would be status quo during the good ol' interwar years.

P.S. The OP not employing proper formatting in his posts raises quite some suspicion from me.

What suspicion am I raising? I can only talk into my phone which means I can't hit enter to make more than one paragraph. This is why most of my posts have YouTube's. I primarily communicate my message through YouTube.
#15094828
Patrickov wrote:The title is slightly misleading. Sounds more like "If Fascists won WW2 with Western Allies it would have Saved Lives"

My take is that I have serious doubts, although not outright disagreement.

WW2 is really WW2. Focusing it on Europe isn't the full picture. I found it funny that, despite fighting United States the most, Japan was often forgotten in such discussions. Italy probably did not worth that much to the Nazis in that sense.

When Hitler took power, Japan already was invading China. Before the war actually broke out and Japan conquered Nanking, China was in close cooperation with the Nazis. After Nanking fell, the Nazis seemed to be convinced that Japan was the more powerful guy there so chose to cooperate with them instead. This inevitably made them adversaries to the West and the Commies simultaneously.

Assume that the Nazis still went to war, I do not think Italy changing camps would have solved this, so Commies would still win against Nazis and things afterwards (the fall of the East and the South to Commies) would still happen.

Another possibility was that without Italy, the Nazis were defeated even more quickly in Europe, and it could be argued that lives in Europe would be saved. However, I am not able to deduce how the East and the Commies would fare in this scenario. For example, I do not see Stalin would prosper as in our timeline, nor he would fall along with the defeated Nazis. Maybe it would be status quo during the good ol' interwar years.

P.S. The OP not employing proper formatting in his posts raises quite some suspicion from me.
when the fascists Lost World War II, Communism spread its errors like dried cornfields on fire killing countless people especially in Asia and South America, and Eastern Europe was occupied by the Soviet Union, which killed more people than were killed in the Holocaust,. The Communist Regime in China killed 80 million people in Mao Great Leap Forward alone. Fascism was created to defend Europe against the spread of Communism. Had Hitler defeated the Soviet Union, they would not have been able to fight Chiang Kai-shek forces in China, or bring about the Korean and Vietnam War or the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia who killed 50% of their own people. Nazism did not persecute as high a percentage of the population of people they occupied. Communist regimes were scared of religious people, educated people, and so paranoid they killed a lot of Their Own people in the Communist Party. We're fascists to get control of Europe , Asia, and the United States, it would have been terrible for the Jews, but overall would have had a lower kill count, because Communist governments are trying to purge Society of a lot more groups than Nazis where. Also, communists push abortion, where fascist Italy was the opposite. If we add all of the aborted babies to the more than 100 million people killed by communists, my points remain. Had fascists won World War II, it would have saved lives
#15094832
Also, the main extermination of Jews took place after Hitler knew he was going to lose the war. The Nazis were starving as well. Hitler feared that with his fall of the Third Reich, the Jews he had detained would help the Communists dominate Europe. Had Hitler defeated the Soviet Union and fascists won the war, it is highly likely he would not have given the order to have such a profound extermination. Once the war was over , it is likely many of those Jews would have been discharged to ghettos. Gypsies, handicapped people, and people who are unfit to be productive members of society were also wiped out. German supply lines that were feeding the camps were getting bombed and there wasn't enough food to feed everybody. Knowing that defeat was certain , the mass exterminations we're the result of panic mode. A scared animal is the most dangerous of all. The Communists Slaughter of over a hundred million people in the 20th century would not have happened if the Axis powers won. There would have been a much less kill count. What happened after World War II was worse than World War II.
#15094834
Zionist Nationalist wrote:You dont even know what you are talking about

Beside exterminating Jews,Handicaps,Gays Nazis had plans of exterminating Slavic nations to make space for future Aryan settlers
and of course turn the survivors into their slaves

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
I am not a fan of Nazism. I despise Adolf Hitler. However, communist regimes have a much higher kill count. Communist regimes had plans for Exterminating well over 50% of the population of the globe. Communist agendas were a world that strictly Outlaws and forbids all forms of dark aged superstition and the opiate of the people. More than 90% the world, even in communist countries, was a threat to the government, because atheists made up a small percent of the world, and there were many closet theists disguised as communist, so many innocent people accused of being opposed to the government were killed. Communism had an agenda to purge the world of over half of its people seen most in it's true colors under the Khmer Rouge.
#15094835
Zionist Nationalist wrote:I dont know where you got this information from but its all bullshit
I believe Adolf Hitler should have been killed and I do not believe he was a fascist. After killing Adolf Hitler the Germans and the Allies should have Linked UP to go to Moscow. Joseph Stalin invaded Poland , yes the Allies declared war on Germany for invading Poland. The Polish soldiers were fighting on two fronts, fighting the Soviets who are allied with the Germans at the time. The Allies should have declared war on the Soviets for being guilty of the same crime Hitler was, and then Benito Mussolini and Francisco Franco would have joined the allies. Joseph Stalin conquered all of Eastern Europe and got a slap on the wrist for it.
#15094836
You have been fed with too much western propoganda

Stalin was not as bad as you think and he was not even close to be as bad as Hitler he actually did alot for soviet people despite the bad things that he did
Stalin did not kill 50 million people those numbers dont make sense at all

around 1 million died in gulags in a span of about 30 years
another 8 million died from starvation across the soviet union but there are many factors that made this happen and its not because Stalin decided to starve his people for fun
#15094837
Zionist Nationalist wrote:You have been fed with too much western propoganda

Stalin was not as bad as you think and he was not even close to be as bad as Hitler he actually did alot for soviet people despite the bad things that he did
Stalin did not kill 50 million people those numbers dont make sense at all

around 1 million died in gulags in a span of about 30 years
another 8 million died from starvation across the soviet union but there are many factors that made this happen and its not because Stalin decided to starve his people for fun
Stalin wanted the Soviet Union to stretch across the entire continent from Portugal to the Sea separating them from Alaska and wanted red revolutions to bring communist victories throughout Asia. He was behind regimes that forced Christians to attend black masses where they were forced to eat feces for Holy Communion, nuns were raped and sodomized then shot in the back of the head before they could repent, the hands of priests were cut off so they couldn't say Mass, people were dragged naked into the streets in the middle of winter and doused in water until they became icicles, people we're sleep-deprived until they went permanently insane, children were raped and tortured to death in front of their parents, children were separated from their parents, people were tortured until they were confined permanently to wheelchairs, people were eaten alive by vicious dogs, there was a massive rape epidemic in East Berlin & other areas the Red Army occupied, Mao Zedong had re-education camps which had a higher suicide rates then Japanese poww camps or Hitler's concentration camps and everything was confiscated from Farmers and they were left to starve to death. All of this is the fruits of Joseph Stalin, because he supported and propped up those regimes.
#15094842
Adolf Hitler must surely be the worst anti Communist that ever lived. I've been critical of the anti Communism of Roosevelt of, Eisenhower, of JFK, but compared to Hitler their faults were tiny when it came to anti Communism.

Hitler sat in his barracks while the battle for Bavaria took place.

His supporters even combined with Communists on occasion to break up Social Democrat meetings.

He destroyed the anti Communist bulwarks of Poland and Czechoslovakia.

He allied with the Soviet union.

He allowed Stalin to attack Finland, crush the Baltic States and seize parts of Romania.

He allowed German industry and technological expertise to turn the Red Army into the Greatest army the world had ever seen.

His bigoted demented, racist short sighted occupation policies in the Soviet Union, forced millions of Slavs who hated Communism to side with Stalin as the lesser evil.

His bigoted demented, racist short sighted occupation policies in Western Europe, disempowered, humiliated and alienated tens of millions of potential anti Communist fighters.

And in the twilight of the war he denuded the Eastern Front in order to launch his idiotic "Wacht am Rhine" offensive, that would have been even more of failure that it wasif Patton had had command.
#15094844
Rich wrote:Adolf Hitler must surely be the worst anti Communist that ever lived. I've been critical of the anti Communism of Roosevelt of, Eisenhower, of JFK, but compared to Hitler their faults were tiny when it came to anti Communism.

Hitler sat in his barracks while the battle for Bavaria took place.

His supporters even combined with Communists on occasion to break up Social Democrat meetings.

He destroyed the anti Communist bulwarks of Poland and Czechoslovakia.

He allied with the Soviet union.

He allowed Stalin to attack Finland, crush the Baltic States and seize parts of Romania.

He allowed German industry and technological expertise to turn the Red Army into the Greatest army the world had ever seen.

His bigoted demented, racist short sighted occupation policies in the Soviet Union, forced millions of Slavs who hated Communism to side with Stalin as the lesser evil.

His bigoted demented, racist short sighted occupation policies in Western Europe, disempowered, humiliated and alienated tens of millions of potential anti Communist fighters.

And in the twilight of the war he denuded the Eastern Front in order to launch his idiotic "Wacht am Rhine" offensive, that would have been even more of failure that it wasif Patton had had command.
Hitler was an idiot! However, he was anti-communist. One of the reasons the Nazi party got so many votes was because of how much people feared a communist takeover of Germany
#15094989
Many Jews that fled to Italy were given fake passports and taken to other countries. The Nazis were very upset with the Italians for not rounding up Jews. Mussolini thought it would be better for the Jews in Italy if he sided with Adolf Hitler and seized some of the land rather than let it fall to the Nazis.


The attitude of the Japanese government to the Jews was totally different than that of the official German position and it had no intention of taking measures against the Jews. 40,000 Jews found themselves under Japanese occupation in Manchuria and all of them survived the war. Hitler was a genocidal maniac whose position on the Jews was not supported by his allies. When I picked up this book, I thought it was written by a revisionist author but Medzini is a Harvard graduate who teaches at the Hebrew University.

Under the Shadow of the Rising Sun: Japan and the Jews during the Holocaust Era (Lectures from the “Broadcast University” of Israel Army Radio) (Jewish Identities in Post-Modern Society)

Meron Medzini (Author)

“Under the Shadow of the Rising Sun is a masterpiece that goes beyond its title. It analyses the attitude of the government and people of Japan towards persecuted Jews in various historical contexts, including: Japan in modern world history; Japan in Asia; the history of Jewish communities in Asia as well as their relations with Jewish communities elsewhere and the Zionist Movement; and Japan’s attitudes toward Zionism and the State of Israel. The book covers a variety of related themes and is rich in details, analyses, insights, and reasonable inferences and hypotheses based on a multiplicity of sources. Most notable is Medzini’s conclusion that the attitude of the Japanese government and people toward the Jews was ‘by and large fair and even humane.’” (Ehud Harari, Emeritus Professor of Asian Studies, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem)

"Japan’s attitude to and policies toward Jews from 1933 to 1945 ― the years that coincided with the rise and fall of Nazi Germany ― is the subject of Meron Medzini’s fine and fascinating work of scholarship, Under the Shadow of the Rising Sun: Japan and the Jews During the Holocaust Period ... Medzini, a Hebrew University historian, is one of the few scholars who has exhaustively delved into this intriguing topic ... Medzini’s wide-ranging book fills the gap quite admirably. He deals with the influx of Jews into Japan from the mid-19th century, the image of Jews in Japanese society, the export of antisemitism to Japan, the treatment meted out to Jews in Japanese-occupied Manchuria, China and Southeast Asia and the policies Japan formulated with respect to Jewish refugees." (Sheldon Kirshner, The Times of Israel, 5 Feb 2017)

"In this fascinating and highly readable book, Meron Medzini offers a sweeping overview of Japan’s ambivalent attitude towards the Jews living in its empire before and during World War II and the controversial treatment meted out to them." (Rotem Kowner, Professor of Asian Studies, University of Haifa)

“Japan has been neglected in most literature on the modern history of the Jews. However, Japan was involved in the fate of the Jews at their critical moments. Although Japan was an ally of Nazi Germany during the War, the Japanese gave a refuge for the Jews fleeing from Nazism. This stood in sharp contrast to the case of the “enemy nationals” who were rather inhumanly treated under Japanese occupation. Meron Medzini’s book provides a fascinating scholarly insight into the history of Jewish-Japanese relations, adding a new chapter to the works of Ben-Ami Shillony and Rotem Kowner.” (Naoki Maruyama, Professor Emeritus of Law, Meiji Gakuin University)

“Anyone wishing to learn about the fate of the Jews in Japan during the years of the Holocaust will gain immensely from reading this eye-opening book. Few people know this generally overlooked history as well as Meron Medzini and can tell its story in as authoritative and engaging a way as he.” (Alvin H. Rosenfeld, Professor of English and Jewish Studies, Irving M. Glazer Chair in Jewish Studies, Indiana University)

The great value of this book is that it brings together Medzini’s own and numerous studies by others in assessing how we might ultimately evaluate the Jewish experience under Japan. The lengthy bibliography in various languages and far-flung presses will give the reader an idea of what the range of diverse work on this topic has been. It would be no exaggeration to say that this is one of the best surveys of the topic that we now have in English―perhaps the best. (Joshua A. Fogel Journal of Japanese Studies)

Indeed, the strength of Medzini’s book lies in the fact that he sees this key issue, namely the survival of Jews on Japanese-controlled territory during the war, not only in the context of Jewish-Japanese relations, but also as an Asian story more broadly. … Meron Medzini’s book must be regarded as a commendable contribution to understanding the complex nature of this important chapter of Jewish-Japanese relations. (Thomas Pekar Holocaust and Genocide Studies)

Under the Shadow of the Rising Sun is a timely book that presents both experts and laymen with an excellent overview of up-to-date research on this topic in a readable and engaging form. (Rotem Kowner, Professor of Asian Studies, University of Haifa Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs)

[Under the Shadow of the Rising Sun] is a very good addition to Japanese-Jewish historical literature. ... While there are other general books about Jews in Japan, this book’s focus on the WWII years makes it somewhat unique. The book contains an excellent selected bibliography as well as endnotes which will aid students and scholars for further research. Recommended for all academic libraries and libraries that collect in Diaspora or WWII history.
#15095017
ThirdTerm wrote:The attitude of the Japanese government to the Jews was totally different than that of the official German position and it had no intention of taking measures against the Jews. 40,000 Jews found themselves under Japanese occupation in Manchuria and all of them survived the war. Hitler was a genocidal maniac whose position on the Jews was not supported by his allies. When I picked up this book, I thought it was written by a revisionist author but Medzini is a Harvard graduate who teaches at the Hebrew University.

Coincidentally, I was just listening to House of the Rising Sun before I read your post which includes a book that has Rising Sun in its title. I appreciate your post because it speaks volumes. I love the state religion of Japan Shintoism and practice it. I consider myself more of a Shinto practitioner than a Christian, because in Shintoism there is no Dogma , there are no scriptures , and nobody knows who founded the religion, which makes it a brilliant faith because there's nothing to argue and bicker about, and there's no such thing as a heretic to point the finger at, and there's no division over Doctrine.
Image and Shintoism is completely compatible with Christianity as well. I pray a lot to the 2400000 Plus War dead enshrined at Yasukuni. Everyone who dies for the emperor gets enshrined. It's just interesting that you mentioned the Japanese having such positive relations with Jews, because I have often compared Japan to ancient Israel. They called their Nation the Holy Land of the kami, a sacred land, a sacred people, an anointed people with a Divine Dynasty that is the oldest Dynasty in the world, and in many ways they behaved like ancient Israelites and believe themselves to be a blessed and chosen people living on Holy Ground. So anyway, I'm glad to see that they had good relations with the Jews despite being allied with Adolf Hitler.
#15095082
Spider-Man wrote:Hitler was an idiot! However, he was anti-communist. One of the reasons the Nazi party got so many votes was because of how much people feared a communist takeover of Germany

Hitler was a nationalist. Hitler was a nationalist that used anti-communism, for nationalist and other ideological ends. communism is a deadly enemy so I make no apologies for using prejudice and bigotry to fight communism. The Islam and culture of the Pashtuns, was vile and hideous, but I make no apologies for supporting the Mujahedin against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Similarly I would have no problem with using anti German racism, bigotry and prejudice to mobilise resistance to the Nazis in 1939 - 41, when they were the greater and most immediate enemy. So for me there is a world of difference between someone who uses anti Jewish sentiment and hatred to fuel anti Communism and someone that uses anti Communist sentiment to fuel hatred of Jews. Hitler was guilty of the latter.

As I've said before politics is not reducible to the "systematic organisation of hatreds", but the "systematic organisation of hatreds" is an inescapable part of politics. Whether its a political, ideological or military struggle if one has overwhelming superiority of force and power over the enemy, then one can afford to play nice, but in any struggle that is anywhere close to even, in any struggle where the outcome is actually in doubt, one can rarely afford to refrain from dirty tactics.
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