[Napuljun]

Yuri Andropov took power in 1983 after Brezhnev's death. Unlike Politburo members like Chernenko who were very conservative in their ways and did not wish for any change in the Soviet system, Andropov realised that change was needed if the Soviet Economy would had to be kept at alarge.

Andropov started out by changing nearly all the Interior Ministry, sacking and changing Politburo officials and made Gorbachev, Ligachev and Ryzhkov Central Committe Secretaries. He begun an Anti-Curroption campaing and discipline at work increased, sacked workers who were absent from their work and increased discipline in the streets. On July 1983 he passed a decree letting industrial associations more autonomy in their work to increase production.

One of his most galantly deeds was that in Februaury in 1983 he visisted a Moscow lathe-making factory and held some conversations with the workers. This was rarely done in the past leaderships.

Andropov like the heroic Gorbachev realised that the Soviet Union was not the workers haven drawn by Stalin. He realised that reforms where needed to keep the Soviet Union exisisting and so he worked for reforms. Unfortunatley he died quickly and a conservative succedded him (Chernenko). But the soon arrival of Gorbahcev promised that the Soviet Union would still be saved by his reforms. Unfortanetly events went against him, and against the people.

Napuljun

[Vassili Zaitsev]

Um, sorry to burst your bubble. But Gorby admitted that his mission and goal was to eliminate communism in the Soviet Union. He favored continued unison among the republics, but without communism. Gorbachev admitted in an interview that it was his mission to destroy communism in the USSR. I forgot where the article is, but it IS out there. Does anyone know where it is located? If so, please post it.

in 1996, traitor Gorby tried to run for president of Russia, he won less than 1% of the popular vote, and got punched by a voter. -The Russians have had enough of his shit.

[Napuljun]

Um, sorry to burst your bubble. But Gorby admitted that his mission and goal was to eliminate communism in the Soviet Union. He favored continued unison among the republics, but without communism. Gorbachev admitted in an interview that it was his mission to destroy communism in the USSR. I forgot where the article is, but it IS out there. Does anyone know where it is located? If so, please post it.

in 1996, traitor Gorby tried to run for president of Russia, he won less than 1% of the popular vote, and got punched by a voter.

This is off topic. I tried to build up a debate on Andropov and his reforms but nobody seems to be itnerested.

[Vassili Zaitsev]

You're dodging, it may be a little staryed, but it hardly de-railed. You clearly mention Gorbachev there and his reforms several times. -And you mention praise for them. If Andropov's reforms are linked to Gorby's reforms, then well, if you didn't want anyone to comment on Gorby's reforms, than don't mention them in the same post.

You call Gorbachev a hero, but many Russians call him a traitor. Again, please, simply put -if you don't want the worms out, then don't open the can. -As they say.

[Comrade Joseph]

he won less than 1% of the popular vote, and got punched by a voter.

LOL, that is great. Especially the part where he got punched by a voter. I hadn't heard that before.

I believe that Andropov supported maintaining a one-party state, unlike Gorbie the bourgeois democratic pig.

[Napuljun]

I believe that Andropov supported maintaining a one-party state, unlike Gorbie the bourgeois democratic pig.

Gorbachev is in favour of the one-party state. In his book Perestroika he says that a multi-party state infridges democracy becuase the parties are more concerned in winnign votes and criticsing their opponents instead of leading the country.

You call Gorbachev a hero, but many Russians call him a traitor. Again, please, simply put -if you don't want the worms out, then don't open the can. -As they say.

This is a fact. The Russians hate Gorbachev, but why? Becuase when exactly Yeltsin took power he made a huge media campaign blaming Gorbachev's past reforms for the problems he was causing in the country.

Um, sorry to burst your bubble. But Gorby admitted that his mission and goal was to eliminate communism in the Soviet Union. He favored continued unison among the republics, but without communism. Gorbachev admitted in an interview that it was his mission to destroy communism in the USSR. I forgot where the article is, but it IS out there. Does anyone know where it is located? If so, please post it.

This is untrue and false. Gorbachev did not want to destroy communism.

in 1996, traitor Gorby

He is not a traitor and there is no real reason why calling him that way.

[Lincoln (m)]

Um, sorry to burst your bubble. But Gorby admitted that his mission and goal was to eliminate communism in the Soviet Union. He favored continued unison among the republics, but without communism. Gorbachev admitted in an interview that it was his mission to destroy communism in the USSR. I forgot where the article is, but it IS out there. Does anyone know where it is located? If so, please post it.

This is untrue and false. Gorbachev did not want to destroy communism.

No it isn't. Gorbachev said it himself. I don't know how much more evidence you need.

http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/r ... orbach.htm

http://www.wpb.be/lalkar/lalkar0003/13gorbachev.html

Not much of a communist.

[Napuljun]

The quotes are so absurd! They even contradict themsleves on one time and another.

"I was in Beijing during the time of the protests at Tianamen Square, where I really though that communism in China was going to crash. I sternly demanded of the Chinese leadership that I be allowed to speak to the protesters, but they did not allow me to do so.

He was not their at the time of the protests! He went there on the 14 May 1989! And the protests were ten days before this! The article is so absurd!

[Lincoln (m)]

The quotes are so absurd! They even contradict themsleves on one time and another.

"I was in Beijing during the time of the protests at Tianamen Square, where I really though that communism in China was going to crash. I sternly demanded of the Chinese leadership that I be allowed to speak to the protesters, but they did not allow me to do so.

He was not their at the time of the protests! He went there on the 14 May 1989! And the protests were ten days before this! The article is so absurd!

Seriously, I'm not going to waste my time on this any further. If you don't know about something don't speak authoritatively on it. Tiananmen protests and the encampment lasted from April-June of 1989. ANY documentary on the subject will show that, in fact I'm sure a quick Google search will reveal web-sites that can give you time lines. It will also show Gorbachev's visit during that time. I'm not going to keep doing your homework for you. Gorbachev's remarks are now well known.

[Napuljun]

Seriously, I'm not going to waste my time on this any further. If you don't know about something don't speak authoritatively on it. Tiananmen protests and the encampment lasted from April-June of 1989. ANY documentary on the subject will show that, in fact I'm sure a quick Google search will reveal web-sites that can give you time lines. It will also show Gorbachev's visit during that time. I'm not going to keep doing your homework for you. Gorbachev's remarks are now well known.

These remarks who you are saying are only in the websites you posted and not they are the truth. On countless interviews he made, I never heard him say such absurddities. If Gorbachev would have really said that than there would have been a wide media outlook on them and not just the websites you posted.

Regarding Tiananmen, don't tell me you are trying to support the Chinese Government's decision about the issue just to discredit Gorbachev.

[Russkie]

Gorbi was Reagon's ass-licker. They should of used more Stalinist tactics to achieve higher growth and destroy corruption.

[Lincoln (m)]

Seriously, I'm not going to waste my time on this any further. If you don't know about something don't speak authoritatively on it. Tiananmen protests and the encampment lasted from April-June of 1989. ANY documentary on the subject will show that, in fact I'm sure a quick Google search will reveal web-sites that can give you time lines. It will also show Gorbachev's visit during that time. I'm not going to keep doing your homework for you. Gorbachev's remarks are now well known.

Regarding Tiananmen, don't tell me you are trying to support the Chinese Government's decision about the issue just to discredit Gorbachev.

Do me a favour. Look at my remarks above. Then look at what you wrote. Then please tell me where the hell you infered that from.

Next:

These remarks who you are saying are only in the websites you posted and not they are the truth. On countless interviews he made, I never heard him say such absurddities. If Gorbachev would have really said that than there would have been a wide media outlook on them and not just the websites you posted.

No, he has made remarks to this effect on a number of occasions. There is nothing particularly obscure about that information. He obviously is not on record as having said things along these lines during his time as Gen Sec of the USSR, it is more recent. I took a Baltic history class in my last semester we had a lengthy discussion about Gorbachev and his real intent. The professor and a number of the students were familiar with his contention that he was trying to eradicate communism/socialism. You can look into it yourself if you're really interested, I don't have time to provide a bibliography. Maybe Maxim would know he's a student of Soviet history pm him or something. I mean for the love of god the man does ads for Pizza Hut, he's not a communist. In any event so much damage had been done to the socialist project by the time Gorbachev got in there, there's a whole other dimension to this discussion.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Andropov like the heroic Gorbachev.......

Holy Crap! Gorbachev is heroic?

Andropov was a Stalinist leader. His reforms were anti-coruption type as you pointed out:

He begun an Anti-Curroption campaing and discipline at work increased, sacked workers who were absent from their work and increased discipline in the streets.


Ok what was heroic about Gorbachev? The fact thay he openned a can of worms and could not deal with them? Fucking westerners praise Gorbachev and have absolutely no idea about what was going on in the Soviet Union. I bet you won't be able to tell me a dam thing about the civil wars that broke out throughout the USSR and the direct involvment of the Kremlin in those events. Of coarse you can't really put total blame on Gorbachev as he simply inacted the Bolshevik's plan from the get-go.

There must have been something wrong if he is hated by all the peoples of the CIS and everyone had their own gripes. What? He couldn't do anything right?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Actually Gorbachov openly Admitted that he was a CIA spy and that his goal was to destroy Communism and the USSR, in a speech in Turkey. Here is the speech:

http://www.zeminfo.ru/newsline/2003_46/ ... 04_46.html
http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password ... bachev.htm
http://sengiley.narod.ru/VIPStavropol/g ... znanie.htm
http://supol.narod.ru/archive/books/iuda.htm

Речь М.С. Горбачева на семинаре в Американском университете в Турции

Целью всей моей жизни было уничтожение коммунизма, невыносимой диктатуры над людьми.

Меня полностью поддержала моя жена, которая поняла необходимость этого даже раньше, чем я. Именно для достижения этой цели, я использовал свое положение в партии и стране.

Именно поэтому моя жена все время подталкивала меня к тому, чтобы я последовательно занимал все более и более высокое положение в стране.

Когда же я лично познакомился с Западом, я понял, что я не могу отступить от поставленной цели. А для ее достижения я должен был заменить все руководство КПСС и СССР, а также руководство во всех социалистических странах. Моим идеалом в то время был путь социал-демократических стран. Плановая экономика не позволяла реализовать потенциал, которым обладали народы социалистического лагеря. Только переход на рыночную экономику мог дать возможность нашим странам динамично развиваться.

Мне удалось найти сподвижников в реализации этих целей. Среди них особое место занимают А.H. Яковлев и Э.Г. Шеварднадзе, заслуги которых, в нашем общем деле просто неоценимы.

Мир без коммунизма будет выглядеть лучше. После 2000 года наступит эпоха мира и всеобщего процветания. Hо в мире еще сохраняется сила, которая будет тормозить наше движение к миру и созиданию. Я имею в виду Китай.

Я посетил Китай во время больших студенческих демонстраций, когда казалось, что коммунизм в Китае падет. Я собирался выступить перед демонстрантами на той огромной площади, выразить им свою симпатию и поддержку и убедить их в том, что они должны продолжать свою борьбу, чтобы и в их стране началась перестройка. Китайское руководство не поддержало студенческое движение, жестоко подавило демонстрацию и ... совершило величайшую ошибку. Если бы настал конец коммунизму в Китае, миру было бы легче двигаться по пути согласия и справедливости.

Я намеривался сохранить СССР в существовавших тогда границах, но под новым названием, отражающим суть произошедших демократических преобразований. Это мне не удалось, Ельцин страшно рвался к власти, не имея ни малейшего представления о том, что представляет из себя демократическое государство. Именно он развалил СССР, что привело к политическому хаосу и всем последовавшим за этим трудностям, которые переживают сегодня народы всех бывших республик Советского Союза.

Россия не может быть великой державой без Украины, Казахстана, кавказских республик. Hо они уже пошли по собственному пути, и их механическое объединение не имеет смысла, поскольку оно привело бы к конституционному хаосу. Hезависимые государства могут объединиться только на базе общей политической идеи, рыночной экономики, демократии, равных прав всех народов.

Когда Ельцин разрушил СССР, я покинул Кремль, и некоторые журналисты высказывали предположение, что я буду при этом плакать. Hо я не плакал, ибо я покончил с коммунизмом в Европе. Hо с ним нужно также покончить и в Азии, ибо он является основным препятствием на пути достижения человечеством идеалов всеобщего мира и согласия.

Распад СССР не приносит какой-либо выгоды США. Они теперь не имеют соответствующего партнера в мире, каким мог бы быть только демократический СССР (а чтобы сохранилась прежняя аббревиатура "СССР", под ней можно было бы понимать Союз Свободных Суверенных Республик - СССР). Hо этого мне не удалось сделать. При отсутствии равноправного партнера у США, естественно, возникает искушение присвоить себе роль единственного мирового лидера, который может не считаться с интересами других (и особенно малых государств). Это ошибка, чреватая многими опасностями как для самих США, так и для всего мира.

Путь народов к действительной свободе труден и долог, но он обязательно будет успешным. Только для этого весь мир должен освободиться от коммунизма.

So dont tell me Gorbachov didnt want to destory the USSR because its absolutelly False!

[Truth-a-naut]

Doesn't Gorby now live in America?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

So dont tell me Gorbachov didnt want to destory the USSR because its absolutelly False!

What you posted there is a direct quote of Gorbachev.
He said that he wanted to keep the USSR intact to be honest.

Россия не может быть великой державой без Украины, Казахстана, кавказских республик. Hо они уже пошли по собственному пути, и их механическое объединение не имеет смысла, поскольку оно привело бы к конституционному хаосу. Hезависимые государства могут объединиться только на базе общей политической идеи, рыночной экономики, демократии, равных прав всех народов.

Here he says that Russia cannot be a great power without Ukrain, Khazakhastan, the Caucasus republics....


Basically he says that he wanted to topple the dictatorship of the protalitariat, make drastic changes in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and transition towards a socialist democracy. He also blames the fall of the Soviet Union and the hardships of the people of the former USSR on Yeltsin .

On Tienamen square:

Я посетил Китай во время больших студенческих демонстраций, когда казалось, что коммунизм в Китае падет. Я собирался выступить перед демонстрантами на той огромной площади, выразить им свою симпатию и поддержку и убедить их в том, что они должны продолжать свою борьбу, чтобы и в их стране началась перестройка. Китайское руководство не поддержало студенческое движение, жестоко подавило демонстрацию и ... совершило величайшую ошибку. Если бы настал конец коммунизму в Китае, миру было бы легче двигаться по пути согласия и справедливости

He says that he was in China during the demonstrations, when it appeared that communism in China was about to fall -- this is all according to him. He said that he planned to speak at the demonstration to express solidarity and support for the students and to tell them to keep up their struggle so that perestroika would take place in China. He added that the goverment of China made a big mistake by crushing the demonstration.

--The above is actually pretty funny to me.

[Reaganite1]

Yuri Andropov was head of the most repressive police forces in the world. I have little respect for the man myself. As Reagan said one time, communism was just another sad, bizzare chapter in human history.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Capitalism is even wose, Socialism might have defects but the majority lives good, in Capitalism a few live good, the majority are exploted.

[Reaganite1]

Capitalism is even wose, Socialism might have defects but the majority lives good, in Capitalism a few live good, the majority are exploted.

Capitalism is exploitive but it produces more wealth than socialism. If you don't want to work for somebody else...put together a good business plan, start your own business and work for yourself. The choice is all yours. Nobody owes you a job and you know if you are willing to work hard... you can make so much money, you wouldn't know to do with it. It's all about your attitude and how you conduct yourself. You have to look at things and see opportunity rather than pessismism. You have to go in with the goals, dreams and a plan to accomplish them. The only thing that is stopping you from doing well in capitalism is you.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

that is in part true, but rich assholes wont let you start a business and be sucesfull.
They dont want to share the part of the Cake, they want it all for them so its will be always very very very hard to get it (99% of the times impossible)

Socialism produces for the common good, beneifts the majority.
Capitalism benefits a few.