[thenecrosoviet]

oooooooooooo this is gonna get me a bad name but..........didnt lenin supress freedom of speech? i mean with the CHEKA and all......

[thenecrosoviet]

crap that was supposed to be in the freedom of speech forum, damn!

[Red Erik]

I think we are talking here about the dictatorschip of the proletariat. The revolution would have never taken place if the proletariat didn't wanted a revolution. They chose it and so they chose to live in a socialist state. However, not everyone was happy in this socialist state (think big owners of industial factory's or large land owners). They will do anything in their power to overthrow the socialist soceity even if thousands of hard workers gave their live for this cause. The workers are in majority and the majority chose that system. If a minor group uses terrorism to overthrow the socialist government then that government has the right to act. There was freedom of speech but just as in any country in the world they wouldn't accept a counter-revolution from a wealthier but smaller group.

[Erik of NKP]

When it comes to this discussion about freedom of speech I have found that it is quite a difficult issue. Earlier I meant that there ofcourse HAD to be freedom of speech under an ideal socialst system, because we want the maximum possible amount of freedom. But after studying more and seeing how things have happened throughout history I have come in doubt.

I would, ofcourse, want a future socialst society to have full freedom of speech, I think that everyone should be allowed to express their views, also against the new government (or actually ESPECIALLY against the new government, as critisism often leads to positive change). And I believe that this is a possibility for some parts of the world, like my own country Norway for instance. But when I look at other countries I now totally understand that having total freedom of speech isn't a possibility for a socialist government in some parts of the world. Like Cuba today for example.

The reason for this is that allowing total freedom of expression and organization will not be possible as long as the constant threat from imperialist powers exists. Every time society has had a progressive movement in growth, threatening to take control of a state, imperialist powers have intervened. If there is full freedom, the USA could (and do) give massive economic and political support to oppositional groups. This can easily lead to a minority actually getting more power than the progressive majority. An example of this is when the Communist Party in Italy were close to winning the elections after WW2, the CIA gave huge amounts of money and materials to the main competitor (som Christian party) and enabled them to among other things drive around on the country side with trucks carrying movieprojectors that would show anti-communist propaganda. In addition, priests preached against the communists as well, and as many Italians were very religious, this had a great affect. Many people turned away from the communists and the campaign was therefore successful.

This was just one example, there are many more. But because the USA exists (and other imperialist powers are growing, like the EU) a state attempting to build socialism might find it very difficult to allow full freedom of speech. This is ESPECIALLY difficult for Cuba as they are so close to the US and because they no longer have the protection of the USSR. If Castro opened for full freedom of speech on Cuba, the reactionaries would be heavily assissted by the American government. They would recieve massive amounts of cash and materials to "convince" the Cuban population to follow them. The US government is much richer (and much better at making propaganda I might add) than the Cuban government, and therefore it is likely that the Cuban government would fall quite quickly.

[Deicidus]

I saw a report on poverty in Russia today. The guy lost his job because his factory coudlnt compete with the american ones. He was out of job and out of money. His wife started bad talking about Putin and his extreme right goverment policies. The reporter made a comment to her that, 10 years ago, she could have never talked like that. The women replied. Mister, 3 of my sons are dead. 2 fighting a pointless war with Tchechenya and the other one of hunger. But beleive me when I say to you how happy I am for myself to say it out loud so everybody that wont listen can hear me.

[Putinist]

His wife started bad talking about Putin and his extreme right goverment policies.

You take that back!!!

[Siberian Fox]

And how exactly is one supposed to "take back" what someone else has said? Shouting isn't going to get you anywhere Putinist

Besides, Putin is a right winger

[Putinist]

Sorry, I missed these comments earlier.

Besides, Putin is a right winger

Putin is, right now, pretending to be a right-winger (although he is officially supposed to be a very centrist politician), but, as you well know, Adrian, he is coverly a hardline Soviet-style Communist. Soon he will shed his skin and his true nature will be revealed.

While I am talking to you by the way, let me just ask is there some kind of a problem with the forum today? About half-an-hour ago I tried to log in to my account and it said that I was "already logged in" when I just wasn't. Weird.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Look Putinist...don't poisen every stinkiong thread in this forum with your delusions. Please let us have a normal discussion for once without having to discuss what will happen in the future. Keep that to your already 3-4 threads on the subject. PLEASE!!

Regarding freedom of speech. Lenin once said...what is putting a few intellectual bourgeois in jail for a few days or weeks...compared to the thousans of worker's lives you will be savin by doing so?? He was refering to the Menshevik and social-democrat intellectuals who sat comfortably writing papers on how Bolshevism was failing and the workers needed to rise againts Bolsheviks and so forth. They were calling for a revolution...So Lenin had them put in jail for a short time. And it was worth it.

Remember...this is a dictatorship of the proletariat.

The Soviet press itself was very much open and critical of its own society. Gorky told Stalin once if it was so wise that Pravda was writing so many critical articles...criticizing corruption or poor performance or abuses of many factories and so forth...Was it wise that Pravda was writng so many articles with detailed information on bad performance. Gorky said this only served the interests of the anti-communists...who would only use our open criticism as a weapon against us.

[Putinist]

Look Putinist...don't poison every stinking thread in this forum with your delusions. Please let us have a normal discussion for once without having to discuss what will happen in the future. Keep that to your already 3-4 threads on the subject. PLEASE!!

-A "former" KGB Lt. Colonel has come to power in the new, capitalist Russia.
-A new and very deadly (to non-communist nations, i.e.: Taiwan) Trans-Asian alliance has been formed between Soviet Russia and Red China.
-A "neutral, socialist" Europe now practically stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Now all that's needed in official Russian entrance, and...
-France and Germany joined the Russians in opposing the US-led Iraq War coalition.
-All of Russia's media is once again Kremlin-controlled, as in Soviet times.
-A statues of the infamous Polish KGB founder "Iron Felix" Dzerzhinsky has "appeared" in Moscow, eleven years after (questionably) genuine pro-Western anarchists tore them down.
-The Soviet-era Red Star, Stalin's national anthem, the Stalinist-era "workers' cult", the Soviet-era gulags, and now Russian military activity, have all been revived.

This is, of-course, all "delusional", is it?

What about all of those communist national regimes that have suddenly "appeared" in South America - are those delusions too?

[Putinist]

No answer...

Just silence as usual.

[jaakko]

No answer...

Just silence as usual.

Yes, because it has nothing to do with the topic. Why haven't people answered you? Have you though maybe they aren't interested in discussing this conspiracy nonsense?

OFF-TOPIC:

-A "former" KGB Lt. Colonel has come to power in the new, capitalist Russia.

So what? USSR's economy was essentially capitalist already by the 1970's.
http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/book/ussrmenu.html

-A new and very deadly (to non-communist nations, i.e.: Taiwan) Trans-Asian alliance has been formed between Soviet Russia and Red China.

USSR ceased to exist in 1991. China has been a capitalist country since 1980's, which has been just officially acknowledged by the CPC (Capitalist Party of China) recently.

-A "neutral, socialist" Europe now practically stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Now all that's needed in official Russian entrance, and...

And we'll wait and see...

-France and Germany joined the Russians in opposing the US-led Iraq War coalition.

'INTER-IMPERIALIST CONTRADICTIONS'
Have you ever heard before?

Apparently you don't know a thing about the motives behind the opposition to the anti-Iraq war by France, Germany or Russia. You're not a communist. Communists analyse world events through dialectical and historical materialism, not by leaning on the conspiracy theories which are based on historical idealism.

-All of Russia's media is once again Kremlin-controlled, as in Soviet times.

I thought the tv channels etc. were bought under this control in free markets. What is the significance of media being 'Kremlin-controlled'? The significance is that the ruling comprador section of Russian bourgeoisie gets full representation in the country's media. As you might know, different sections of the Russian bourgeoisie are competing with each other.

-A statues of the infamous Polish KGB founder "Iron Felix" Dzerzhinsky has "appeared" in Moscow, eleven years after (questionably) genuine pro-Western anarchists tore them down.

Them? I recall only one was toppled (again, by the Americans).

-The Soviet-era Red Star, Stalin's national anthem, the Stalinist-era "workers' cult", the Soviet-era gulags, and now Russian military activity, have all been revived.

Symbols and anthems matter only psychologically. They are revived in order to confuse the people suffering under capitalism. Putin's government has carried out extremely right-wing policies, ie. the policies of the monopoly capital. According to your logic, these policies are carried out only in order to "deceive", while the revival of old Soviet symbols are not the deception but an indication of the true nature of this government. I ask you: which is more important in defining the nature of a state, the symbols or the economics and real politics?

"Gulags"? Does having prisons make a country socialist? According to that logic, USA wouldn't be the leading imperialist country, but the home of world socialist revolution...

"Military activity"? MILITARY ACTIVITY? WHAT IDIOCY!
Assume for a moment that Russia really was a country of monopoly capitalism, and not a deception. Wouldn't it try to revive its military capacity?

[Putinist]

Yes, because it has nothing to do with the topic. Why haven't people answered you? Have you though maybe they aren't interested in discussing this conspiracy nonsense?

"There's no smoke without fire" - it's not "nonsense". After all, all kinds of conspiracy theories are discovered on this forum; everything from extra-terrestrials and UFOs, to was Lenin murdered? and the real intentions of the EU, and the NWO to the Final Phase!

So what? USSR's economy was essentially capitalist already by the 1970's.
http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/book/ussrmenu.html

Argues a man whom hardly anybody has heard of! If this "W. B. Bland" however does have a point, then note that the 1970s saw the beginning of the launch of the Shelepin Final Phase plan, so that could explain a possible pre-Gorbachev capitalist slant to the regime. But Golitsyn makes a point of comparing TFP to Lenin's New Economic Policy of the 1920s - which saw limited capitalism enter into Soviet Russia to deceive the staunchly capitalist Western world into financially accepting the Soviet Union as an economy.

Marx once said that, when an events occurs once, it is genuine. When it repeats itself a second time, it is a farce. In light of this, let me now quote from The Perestroika Deception, Part Four: The Execution of the Strategy of "Perestroika" and the Blind Western Response - The Seven Keys to Understanding "Perestroika"; The need to reconsider our response; The Fifth Key: The Development of Controlled "Political position" in "Democratic" and "Non-Communist" Structures" (page 87):

"The abortive attempts to establish democracy in Hungary and Poland in 1956 was genuine. The present introduction of democracy in the USSR and in Eastern Europe is a farce: it is pseudo-democracy ("democratism"). The Communists have left us plenty of clues; but Western officials and policymakers have overlooked them".

USSR ceased to exist in 1991. China has been a capitalist country since 1980's, which has been just officially acknowledged by the CPC (Capitalist Party of China) recently.

It's all meaningless though. You should, from reading my posts by now, know full well what happened in the 1980s under Gorbachev's "perestroika", as for China, the NEP-style CPC-controlled allowance of capitalism into the country was originally a strategy of Deng in response to the Soviet Union's similar long-range deception strategy.

And we'll wait and see...

No need to "wait and see" - just look at today's Europe "from the Atlantic to the Pacific" - just what the Cold War was being fought for! Christopher Story, in his book The European Union Collective, said that "as the European Union expands eastwards, it is obvious that the centre of power will shift from Western-Central Europe to Moscow".

Apparently you don't know a thing about the motives behind the opposition to the anti-Iraq war by France, Germany or Russia.

Quite the opposite in fact - you don't. Russia, just as it necessarily broke-up the Warsaw Pact, is now out to break-up NATO and the United Nations - and with considerable success so far!

Communists analyse world events through dialectical and historical materialism, not by leaning on the conspiracy theories which are based on historical idealism.

And a 94% accuracy rate?

Well, that may be so, but this communist has had enough of the "accepted truth" - that "Communism finished in 1991" and "The Cold War is over - and the West won!". The news I know is good - and that is why I am spreading it to my fellow leftists. My ideology is not dead. The ideology and the struggle of the workers is not over. "Historical materialism" is that genuine East German dissidents tore down the Berlin Wall in 1989. The new possible reality behind that is that KGB-controlled dissidents, such as Putin - who was stationed in East Germany with the Stasi at the time that the Wall came down, tore down the Wall to unify East German and begin Lenin's World Revolution of the Proletariat. "Historical materialism" states that that capitalists like Yeltsin and Putin have come to power and have destroyed Russia. Again, the reality seems to be that these covert communists are/were major key players in continuing the Revolution I believe in. "Historical materialism" believe that the worlds few remaining true communist countries, i.e.: Cuba and North Korea, are doomed to capitalism within ten years and Western globalism will be unstoppable. But it may yet turn out that communism makes a sensational return sometime in the middle of this decade, capitalism is conquered, the Revolution is complete, and we, the workers, will be free from our capitalist shackles forever.

I thought the tv channels etc. were bought under this control in free markets. What is the significance of media being 'Kremlin-controlled'? The significance is that the ruling comprador section of Russian bourgeoisie gets full representation in the country's media. As you might know, different sections of the Russian bourgeoisie are competing with each other.

Not unless the deceived of collaborating media tycoons are in jail. Berezovsky will likely go down, Guslinsky is already on the way to ruin, and Chubais' days are pretty much numbered as Communism retakes its first fatherland - Russia.

Symbols and anthems matter only psychologically. They are revived in order to confuse the people suffering under capitalism. Putin's government has carried out extremely right-wing policies, ie. the policies of the monopoly capital. According to your logic, these policies are carried out only in order to "deceive", while the revival of old Soviet symbols are not the deception but an indication of the true nature of this government.

That is exactly right. Sure they (Putin's regime and Russian Putinists) might seem like capitalists now (recall Andrei Piontkovsky's misleading article Putinism: The Highest Stages of Robber Capitalism), but soon, capitalism will leave Russia (and China for that matter) for one final time - this time forever. This is the idea behind what Golitsyn calls the "scissors strategy".

I ask you: which is more important in defining the nature of a state, the symbols or the economics and real politics?

The real politics - of-course. Refer to my above comments.

"Military activity"? MILITARY ACTIVITY? WHAT IDIOCY!
Assume for a moment that Russia really was a country of monopoly capitalism, and not a deception. Wouldn't it try to revive its military capacity?

It's military capability is actually absolutely fine. In fact - Russia now has military superiority over the US. How? The Western aid that flowed into Russia and Ukraine in the 1990s decade was really used on advanced covert war preparations. That is why Russia still seems to poor today. They covered this by ordering military vehicles from countries like the US, for "foreign clinents that did not exist". Poland, for example, recently purchased 30 advanced fighter jets off the US, in a deal that Yahoo! called "the biggest post-Cold War military deal". Russia's nuclear arsenal is not "AWOL" - it is still absolutely fine. "So what about the rusting submarines we saw off Vladivostok in the mid-1990s in the Western media?" you may ask next. As Christopher Story told James Whale last week, "it means nothing". Those submarines are surplus to requirements, old, and were hence discarded. In fact, as you know and should by now know well, they have turned the Ural Mountains into an underground nuclear base the size of Washington State! Yamantau Mountain is packed with nukes! Pictures here. Military spending was up 33% at the start of 2003, by the way.

[jaakko]

In all my life reading forums, that has got to be one of the most ridiculous, humorous (for all the wrongs reasons), stupid post I have ever read!

So I've managed to write the post that you disagree the most? What a great honor!

Time is short now, so I will reply tomorrow with an editing of this post.

Why couldn't you just wait untill tomorrow?

Your accusations in point 5 I will not take too kindly - so be warned, "cappie".

You mean the one about government controlled media? How did I upset you? Shouldn't you be happy that KGB-agents like me try to protect this deception from being revealed? Or should I produce better propaganda in order to quarantee the success of this deception?

You called me a capitalist. Why would a capitalist try to help Putin in covering up this great deception?
Unless, of course, if Putin was a lackey of the ruling bourgeoisie, and the 'deception' were the Red Star and the old National Anthem, the policies of the Russian government and state being just real.

But do you know what? I'm not a capitalist. I was born into proletarian family (roots from my father's side going back till the 1918 Class War). Neither me or my parents own any bourgeois property nor live by bying labour power.

That said,
I have absolutely no interest in preventing the re-establishment of USSR as a socialist state. I believe it will happen one day. I might even consider joining the socialist revolution there (unless the situation has gotten hotter also here in Finland). And when the Russian workers are hanging Putin and the gang, you tell me how even that was "just a part of the Great Deception"...

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Yes Putinist...can't you see that we are actually KGB agents cloned from the DNA of Stalin...and we are only trying to stop you from revealing our brillinat masterplan for taking over the world!!!

Shame on you Putinist...You are a counter-revolutionary!! You have revealed to the world our grand masterplan for taking over the world!! You have done great harm to our cause!!

If you want to serve our great masterplan first thought of by the glorious Nikita Kruschiev...we ORDER you to stop revealing details of this plan!!

Renounce your posts as fabrication and delusions of a CIA-payed informist.!! Quick...before it is too late!!

Our grad deception cannot work if you keep revealing its secrets...FOOL!!!

[Putinist]

You called me a capitalist. Why would a capitalist try to help Putin in covering up this great deception?

As far as I am concerned, I work to this adage:
"He who calls me a non-communist is one himself, therefore a capitalist".

But do you know what? I'm not a capitalist. I was born into proletarian family (roots from my father's side going back till the 1918 Class War). Neither me or my parents own any bourgeois property nor live by buying labour power.

Ditto. I, on the other hand, do have an aunt and an uncle who are quite well off due to their professions, but my family and the family of my closest cousins are, by all accounts, working middle class.

And when the Russian workers are hanging Putin and the gang, you tell me how even that was "just a part of the Great Deception"...

The Russian workers, comrades, will not be hanging Putin "and the gang", but waving pictures of him around jubilantly. I will be no exception. Russia's average communists are workers are deceived also by the deception - and I think they have to be. Look at NorthStar Compass Magazine, for example. I called it "counter-revolutionary" the other day, but, in reality, the top hierarchy of their underground movement, i.e.: Herasymchuk, will be fully aware of the true colours and intentions of the Putin Administration, as they make up the KGB-controlled "opposition" to the centre-right regime of Putin. The likelihood is that Zyuganov, himself a Khrushchevite, will know aswell. Personally I quite like Zyuganov - he puts on a good show as "antagonist" to Putin and his regime.

[thenecrosoviet]

why the hell did everyone reply to this and not my freedom of speech forum! where i meant to put this i screwed up and pressed the wrong button......

[Comrade Ogilvy]

"The other day I read an article by Comrade Rakosi in No. 20 of The Communist International on a new book by Otto Bauer, from whom at one time we all learned, but who, like Kautsky, became a miserable petty bourgeois after the war. Bauer now writes: “There, they are now retreating to capitalism! We have always said that it was a bourgeois revolution.”

"And the Mensheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries, all of whom preach this sort of thing, are astonished when we declare that we shall shoot people for such things. They are amazed; but surely it is clear. When an army is in retreat a hundred times more discipline is required than when it is advancing, because during an advance everybody presses forward. If everybody started rushing back now, it would spell immediate and inevitable disaster.

"The most important thing at such a moment is to retreat in good order, to fix the precise limits of the retreat, and not to give way to panic. And when a Menshevik says, “You are now retreating; I have been advocating retreat all the time, I agree with you, I am your man, let us retreat together,” we say in reply, “For the public manifestations of Menshevism our revolutionary courts must pass the death sentence, otherwise they are not our courts, but God knows what.”

"They cannot understand this and exclaim: “What dictatorial manners these people have!” They still think we are persecuting the Mensheviks because they fought us in Geneva. But had we done that we should have been unable to hold power even for two months. Indeed, the sermons which Otto Bauer, the leaders of the Second and Two-and-a Half Internationals, the Mensheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries preach express their true nature—“The revolution has gone too far. What you are saying now we have been saying all the time, permit us to say it again.” But we say in reply: “Permit us to put you before a firing squad for saying that. Either you refrain from expressing your views, or, if you insist on expressing your political views publicly in the present circumstances, when our position is far more difficult than it was when the whiteguards were directly attacking us, then you will have only yourselves to blame if we treat you as the worst and most pernicious whiteguard elements.” We must never forget this."

- Vladimir Ilyich; Eleventh Congress Of The R.C.P.(B.) (March 27-April 22, 1922)

[Ixa]

oooooooooooo this is gonna get me a bad name but..........didnt lenin supress freedom of speech? i mean with the CHEKA and all......

Surely.

Please elaborate.