Norodom Sihanouk Has Passed Away - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14081873
Cambodia's Ex-King Dies In Beijing: Media

CAMBODIA'S former king, Norodom Sihanouk, a revered figure in his home country who had suffered from a number of ailments in recent years, has died in Beijing, Chinese state media says. He was 89.

"Norodom Sihanouk has died in Beijing," Chinese state news agency Xinhua said on Monday, citing an unnamed official without giving further details.

The ex-monarch had been a frequent visitor to China, where he received the bulk of his medical treatment.

One of Asia's longest-serving monarchs, the former king abruptly quit the throne in October 2004 in favour of his son, citing old age and health problems.

His had suffered from a series of health problems recently, including cancer, diabetes and hypertension.

Despite abdicating, the ex-monarch sometimes used his website to communicate with the outside world.

In a message in January, he said he wanted to be cremated upon his death and have his ashes kept in an urn inside the Royal Palace, reversing an earlier wish to be buried.


Source: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/cambodias-ex-king-dies-in-beijing-media/story-e6frf7k6-1226496101115

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Norodom Sihanouk 1922 - 2012

May he rest in peace.
Last edited by Political Interest on 15 Oct 2012 01:13, edited 1 time in total.
#14081894
unbalanced zealot wrote:He was a complex political figure navigating an endless series of complex political scenarios.


Indeed he was. I admire his tenacity in the face of being squeezed by the two power blocs.

RIP.
#14081919
    “The Chinese, in their infinite wisdom, have taught me that one must know when to choose between the primary and secondary enemy. For China, the primary enemy is the Soviet Union, and the secondary one is America. Therefore, they deal with the Soviet Union first, and America later. For me, the primary enemy is American imperialism and Lon Nol's fascism. My secondary enemies are the communists. Thus, I choose to ally myself with the secondary enemy to defeat the primary.” ~ HM King Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia


    “I don't want to become a kind of Hirohito who produces cameras, or an Elizabeth of England who cares only for horses. Even less do I want to turn out like Juan Carlos, who's just a ghost of Franco. I have no personal ambitions.” ~HM King Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia


    “I want my country to be independent, always independent. I have to defend my convictions as a patriot and as a national leader. I have done my best, but as a human being I cannot be perfect, nobody is perfect.” ~ HM King Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia


    “... I hate them. Them and their false democracy, their false liberty, their imperialism conducted in the name of christian civilisation, their coups, like the coup which they started against me...” ~ HM King Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia , on the United States of America


    “For God's sake! If I ran a dictatorship, then what is Lon Nol running? I renounced my throne to show the masses that there's no such thing as divine right, that no one descends from the heavens to rule the people.” ~ HM King Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia


This man was a true king and a patriot, not another of these bloodsucking parasite republican politicians we have nowadays, in the entire world. His courage is unmatched, going against all world powers he could, having had plots to assassinate him coming from all sides. He fought the fascists, the communists and even imperialist liberals.

May His Majesty rest in peace...
#14082109
Rest in peace indeed; this brings me back.

Whether you agree or disagree with his ideology, he was a Khmer patriot.

And a thousand times better than what was to follow in Cambodia after the dissolution of the monarchy and the republic.

Hopefully he can give Pol Pot a big kick in the balls somewhere out in the cosmic space now.
#14082193
This man was a great hero. Under his leadership he oversaw many developments of the Cambodian economy and sought to improve living standards. It was his wish that his people be able to live good lives in happiness. Sadly because he chose not to play the line of the United States he was removed from government. It had not been his wish to fall into the American camp. By trying to extend good relations to both Beijing and Washington and not taking a firm stance against Vietnam he angered the United states. After falling from office he was forced to make an unfortunate alliance with the Khmer Rouge, however he was seeking political survival and how could he have been aware of the genocide they were planning to unleash upon the masses? Aside from all this he had a lively character and jovial personality.

Overall he is someone who I always liked and today someone who I respect immensely. Let us hope he is never forgotten.
#14082631
Far-Right Sage wrote:Rest in peace indeed; this brings me back.

Whether you agree or disagree with his ideology, he was a Khmer patriot.

And a thousand times better than what was to follow in Cambodia after the dissolution of the monarchy and the republic.

Hopefully he can give Pol Pot a big kick in the balls somewhere out in the cosmic space now.


Sorry but no.

He was a political opportunist in the finest Cambodian tradition at best (and it is not nescessarily a moral compliment. It is a reflection of political skills, but even then this picture is not very good: after 1975, he would be nothing more then a popular figurehead).

.An inept and corrupt kleptocrat at best.

Sihanouk allowed for Vietnamese troops to enter Cambodia unharmed. Immediately after being deposited, he allied himself with the Khmer Rouges who used him as a figurehead to get to power.

From the get-go, he believed in a US defeat, preferred to get cozy with Hanoi, hoping (foolishly) that the Vietnamese, a longtime ethnic enemy of the cambodian people, would play favor to him, but prey tell,

If we accept the excuse used by the apologists for Sihanouk use: that Cambodia could not possibly resist on her own the onslaught of the Communist vietnamese. What does a South East Asia with a dominant Vietnam without the US as counterbalance look like?

Even from the POV of the most cynical practitioner of realpolitik, there is no question that a partitioned vietnam would have been beneficial to Cambodia in the long run. A notion Sihanouk did not even deign to consider (as this would have entailed a US victory).

Sihanouk was nowhere near neutral. He let his country be used as a rear area base for the Vietcong and the NVA. He chased US diplomats out of the country. True neutrality would have required the strength to say no to the Vietcong.

8)
#14082741
The One. wrote:Sorry but no.

He was a political opportunist in the finest Cambodian tradition at best (and it is not nescessarily a moral compliment. It is a reflection of political skills, but even then this picture is not very good: after 1975, he would be nothing more then a popular figurehead).


To survive in politics one must be an opportunist.

The One. wrote:.An inept and corrupt kleptocrat at best.


In what respect? Under his leadership Cambodia was developing. Also he was not a Khmer chauvinist like Lon Nol or Pol Pot. It is known that he respected the place of Cham Muslims within Cambodia.

The One. wrote:Sihanouk allowed for Vietnamese troops to enter Cambodia unharmed. Immediately after being deposited, he allied himself with the Khmer Rouges who used him as a figurehead to get to power.

From the get-go, he believed in a US defeat, preferred to get cozy with Hanoi, hoping (foolishly) that the Vietnamese, a longtime ethnic enemy of the cambodian people, would play favor to him, but prey tell,

If we accept the excuse used by the apologists for Sihanouk use: that Cambodia could not possibly resist on her own the onslaught of the Communist vietnamese. What does a South East Asia with a dominant Vietnam without the US as counterbalance look like?


Yes, this is not something I will understand. Most likely it was to maintain good relations with China. We have to remember he was a leftist.

The One. wrote:Even from the POV of the most cynical practitioner of realpolitik, there is no question that a partitioned vietnam would have been beneficial to Cambodia in the long run. A notion Sihanouk did not even deign to consider (as this would have entailed a US victory).


A divided Vietnam was unsustainable.

The One. wrote:Sihanouk was nowhere near neutral. He let his country be used as a rear area base for the Vietcong and the NVA. He chased US diplomats out of the country. True neutrality would have required the strength to say no to the Vietcong.

8)


It changes nothing about his domestic policies. Certainly he was better for his country than Lon Nol or Pol Pot. Good leadership is not down to whether or not someone is pro-American or not.
#14082759
Certainly he was better for his country than Lon Nol or Pol Pot.

That's not difficult, PI. :hmm:

His support for the Khmer Rouge, after having brutally suppressed leftists in Cambodia just a few years earlier, was a blatant act of political opportunism, which proved to be disastrous for Cambodia. Calling Sihanouk a "leftist" is disingenuous - he didn't really have an ideology of his own, but merely weaved a complicated orbit between the various conflicting forces which surrounded him, first pulled one way, then another, but always with an eye on his own immediate political interests. Ultimately, he failed even to achieve those self-interests, ending up as a helpless puppet figurehead for the genocidal Khmer Rouge, who kept him under effective house arrest as they proceeded to slaughter the Cambodian people and even their own cadres. Ultimately, he was a failure as a king and a failure as a politician.
#14083578
Political Interest wrote:To survive in politics one must be an opportunist.


Of course. But a leader is judged by results.

Hun Sen is a leader I respect (even if I do not like his policies, he is the same as Sihanouk, except he actually achieves most of his goals), he is the ultimate opportunist. He achieved most of his goals and in spite turning on his Khmer Rouge comrades, of his shameless alliance with the NVA and several coups he is widely popular in Cambodia today.

That is an effective leader. A survivor. A genuine tough guy that not only survives by his wits,bravery and political skills but thrives. I do not agree with most of his policies.

Did Norodom survive as a politician?
In Thailand, word of the king alone can overturn coups. Sihanouk never had this kind of power after the KR era and spent most of his exile in North Korea. Even had he told Hun Sen to step down, Hun Sen would have simply told him to go take a hike and that would be the end of the story.

I will give Norodom the credit that he had witty comebacks to journalists and foreign diplomats. He was also reported to be a cultivated man who played several musical instruments. Albeit I heard his original work was mediocre(see below).

el
In what respect? Under his leadership Cambodia was developing. Also he was not a Khmer chauvinist like Lon Nol or Pol Pot. It is known that he respected the place of Cham Muslims within Cambodia.


countrystudy.us/cambodia/15.htm wrote:nother critical observer, Milton E. Osborne, writing as an Australian expatriate in Phnom Penh during the late 1960s, describes the Sihanouk years in terms of unbridled greed and corruption, of a foreign policy inspired more by opportunism than by the desire to preserve national independence, of an economy and a political system that were rapidly coming apart, and of the prince's obsession with making outrageously mediocre films--one of which starred himself and his wife, Princess Monique.

Sihanouk was all of these things--patriot, neutralist, embodiment of the nation's destiny, eccentric, rigid defender of the status quo, and promoter of the worst sort of patron-client politics. He believed that he single-handedly had won Cambodia's independence from the French. The contributions of other nationalists, such as Son Ngoc Thanh and the Viet Minh, were conveniently forgotten. Sihanouk also believed he had the right to run the state in a manner not very different from that of the ancient Khmer kings--that is, as an extension of his household.


Norodom was not enough of a "chauvinist" as you say.

Cambodia has also significant Cambodian population in Vietnam who face discrimination by the vietnamese state.It it can get back this land by force of arms, it should do so. Pol Pot's mistake did not reside in wanting to take back ancient cambodian lands, but in his deluded estimation of the balance of power.

Even if you do not accept the Cambodian territorial cloaims, there was simply no excuse for allowing the stationing of Vietcong troops on Cambodia's territory. Opposing this (which is what Lon Nol did) is not chauvinism at all. It is a reasonable demand not to have foreign troops from a historical enemy on one's territory. That is what it means being neutral.

A divided Vietnam was unsustainabe.
Perhaps, but history change constantly. We cannot predict for more then a few decades (if that) at a time.

Cardinal Richelieu's main foreign policy goals was to keep Germany divided. Perhaps unification was been inevitable, but had he not broken diplomatic ranks with his religious fellows, german unification would have arrived much earlier, to the disadvantage of the French.

The time to stop the Vietnamese was right after independance when support against the reds ran at its highest in America.

In a position of weakness, a diplomat's job is to stall for time. had the US succeeded in achieving a stalemate, it is almost certain that Vietnam would still be divided today. A country can achieve a lot in 40 years.


8)
#14084520
He was a political opportunist in the finest Cambodian tradition at best (and it is not nescessarily a moral compliment. It is a reflection of political skills, but even then this picture is not very good: after 1975, he would be nothing more then a popular figurehead).


Well, after '75, he would have less power than the Falange had in Franquist Spain or the Windsors have in modern Britain. There was little Cambodian popular support for a national campaign of royalist resistance to the ascent of the Khmer Rouge, so what exactly could he have done? Flown to Washington D.C. to call for U.S. focus on the destruction of Pol Pot's movement? That was not going to happen after Saigon fell and the Khmer Rouge was receiving extensive Chinese assistance. After we pulled out of Nam, policymakers were eager to help any anti-Vietnamese faction they could find, as the Vietnamese regime was perceived as a Soviet client. So Sihanouk made the best of a bad situation for himself and for Cambodia by sticking around rather than running to his opponents.

From the get-go, he believed in a US defeat, preferred to get cozy with Hanoi, hoping (foolishly) that the Vietnamese, a longtime ethnic enemy of the cambodian people, would play favor to him, but prey tell,

If we accept the excuse used by the apologists for Sihanouk use: that Cambodia could not possibly resist on her own the onslaught of the Communist vietnamese. What does a South East Asia with a dominant Vietnam without the US as counterbalance look like?

Even from the POV of the most cynical practitioner of realpolitik, there is no question that a partitioned vietnam would have been beneficial to Cambodia in the long run. A notion Sihanouk did not even deign to consider (as this would have entailed a US victory).


Before the Sino-Soviet split the Cong and the North Vietnamese were receiving Chinese assistance and coordination as well, so while you echo the sentiments that many Americans had at the time, it doesn't leave a clear path for Sihanouk regardless other than enraging both the Vietnamese and the Chinese while exposing himself to massive internal instability, more perhaps than happened as was the case in our own timeline. The Khmer Rouge began as a fanatically red movement influenced by European and particularly French Marxists, but it was still an ethnic Khmer movement some of whose enemies were personified in the image of the decadent foreigner living within Cambodia among the pure Khmer population and corrupting the Khmer peasantry, some of which were deemed to be wealthy and troublesome Chinese merchants. Not many predicted this would end in the genocide of the Chinese population within Cambodia, but it did, and perhaps if Sihanouk organized from Beijing, he could have seen the deposition of Pol Pot without a Vietnamese invasion, but the Chinese didn't seem to care much about the massacres the way things developed.

Essentially, I'm not an apologist for Sihanouk; I don't share much with him politically and the Cambodian issue pissed many off, including myself, years ago; believe me. I also supported Nixon's bombing run against Cambodia. However, I respect his pragmatism and wish him well in death and his next stage.

Ultimately, he failed even to achieve those self-interests, ending up as a helpless puppet figurehead for the genocidal Khmer Rouge, who kept him under effective house arrest as they proceeded to slaughter the Cambodian people and even their own cadres.


You seem to be condemning the Khmer Rouge here?
#14084532
You seem to be condemning the Khmer Rouge here?

I am. In this respect, I follow the orthodox Soviet line.
#14084534
The Khmer Rouge is just about the only movement that could make life under a Stalinist regime seem preferable to me.
#14084539
The Khmer Rouge is just about the only movement that could make life under a Stalinist regime seem preferable to me.

Agreed. The Khmer Rouge were possibly the most frenzied mass murderers in human history. And yes, that includes the Nazis. :hmm:
#14092486
Far-Right Sage wrote:Well, after '75, he would have less power than the Falange had in Franquist Spain or the Windsors have in modern Britain. There was little Cambodian popular support for a national campaign of royalist resistance to the ascent of the Khmer Rouge, so what exactly could he have done? Flown to Washington D.C. to call for U.S. focus on the destruction of Pol Pot's movement? That was not going to happen after Saigon fell and the Khmer Rouge was receiving extensive Chinese assistance. After we pulled out of Nam, policymakers were eager to help any anti-Vietnamese faction they could find, as the Vietnamese regime was perceived as a Soviet client. So Sihanouk made the best of a bad situation for himself and for Cambodia by sticking around rather than running to his opponents.

Before the Sino-Soviet split the Cong and the North Vietnamese were receiving Chinese assistance and coordination as well, so while you echo the sentiments that many Americans had at the time, it doesn't leave a clear path for Sihanouk regardless other than enraging both the Vietnamese and the Chinese while exposing himself to massive internal instability, more perhaps than happened as was the case in our own timeline.
How, why and most importantly from whom?

Perhaps from the viet communists ,but not from Cambodian themselves.

The KR didn't gain traction until Sihanouk joined them.Before the coup, they were never numbered more then 2000 fighters.

There is only evidence that the vietnamese presence in Cambodia was deeply unpopular. That's the issue that toppled Sihanouk after all. In the wake of the Lon Nol coup, there were mass popular killings of Vietnamese. You said it yourself: even the KR was an ethnic Khmer movement at the core.

The guerilla against Vietnam lasted a full 10 years in spite of KR atrocities. Today, a major point the opposition uses against Hun Sen was his role in the Vietnamese puppet state installed in Cambodia.

I very seriously doubt that a serious effort by Sihanouk to chase the vietnamese out of Cambodia would have resulted in his demise by the hand of cambodians.

I largely agree that the course of action Sihanouk took after he departed the coalition govt with the KR is the correct one... That was not really my point of contention.

I still fail to see how his policies fit in what you define as "pragmatic" and I still fail to see how he imagined that being Hanoi's lap dog would have served Cambodia's cause even from his own point of view, even in the light of a Vietnamese victory.

What was his master plan it seems to me that he had none and that his charisma hid his blunders.

The only path that was acceptable was war... It would have happened sooner or later, and the later Cambodia waited, the worse her position would become vis-a-vis Vietnam.

As an ethnic cambodian , I would swear allegiance to the British Queen before that guy.

8)

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