[Godstud]

Yes, @AFAIK, but we've already spent the money on making most cities car friendly, so it'll take a heap more to change that infrastructure that is already in place.

[Stormsmith]

I am simply a pragmatist and know that with big changes sometimes come big costs.

Motorways and car parks cost money, too.

It is true, and some companies that 'pop up' in response to the opportunities may fail, but much of it will be licences and wages, both of either are taxes or taxable, and wages plus the local buying of goods for the projects will do much to stimulate the local economy

[late]

None of the statements you quoted were supporting big oil.

A lot of that is word for word Big Oil propaganda.

Most of what isn't that explicitly, is that implicitly...

[Drlee]

No one's asking anyone to give up their car. But think about it. It's 14 miles to the office. You need groceries, its raining, etc. You'll use the car, but there are malls within a short distance from your home . How much could you use a bike and save on gas plus help the environment and get exercise if you walked or rode a bike.

I agree with this. The US is an immense country. 20% of our population live in rural areas. I live about 5 miles from the nearest market and 30 miles from the city. I would be loathe to carry my groceries on a bicycle. But. The time is coming when privately owned cars will go away.

A few years ago I was offered a job relating to the federal government that would require my working in Washington DC. (Did not pan out.) As I was doing a search for housing I finally came to realize that there were two overriding factors in my search. Price (of course) and somewhere for my car. I was looking in the suburbs and facing over an hour of horrible beltway traffic just to get to work. Then there was the cost of a DC parking place.

Anyway. It became clear that eliminating the car (and renting when I needed to take a very long trip outside of the city) would allow me to spend another 200K on the house. This put me into a nice three bedroom house on Capital Hill within a few hundred yards of the capital building and easy walking distance to my office, shopping and all but a few of the places where I would work. And I was ready to give this up because I thought I needed a car.

Glad I did not get the job though.

[BigSteve]

A lot of that is word for word Big Oil propaganda.

Most of what isn't that explicitly, is that implicitly...

Good. Link me to articles or pieces to which I can find, verbatim, the things I said and that you quoted. After all, if they're "big oil propoganda" they should be easy to find.

Ready to fail?? GO!

LOL!

I really don't think "The important point is that you belch up nonsense that simply isn't true" is a big oil talking point, but maybe it should be...

[late]

Link me to articles or pieces to which I can find, verbatim, the things I said and that you quoted. After all, if they're "big oil propoganda" they should be easy to find.

Seriously, you need better BS.

[BigSteve]

I agree with this. The US is an immense country. 20% of our population live in rural areas. I live about 5 miles from the nearest market and 30 miles from the city. I would be loathe to carry my groceries on a bicycle. But. The time is coming when privately owned cars will go away.

I go grocery shopping at NAS Jacksonville, usually no more than twice a month. Carrying groceries on a bicycle simply isn't an option.

If the time comes when privately owned vehicles go away (and I don't think they ever will), that time will be long after our grandchildren's grandchildren have died of old age...

A few years ago I was offered a job relating to the federal government that would require my working in Washington DC. (Did not pan out.) As I was doing a search for housing I finally came to realize that there were two overriding factors in my search. Price (of course) and somewhere for my car. I was looking in the suburbs and facing over an hour of horrible beltway traffic just to get to work. Then there was the cost of a DC parking place.

DC has some of the worst traffic I've ever seen...

Anyway. It became clear that eliminating the car (and renting when I needed to take a very long trip outside of the city) would allow me to spend another 200K on the house. This put me into a nice three bedroom house on Capital Hill within a few hundred yards of the capital building and easy walking distance to my office, shopping and all but a few of the places where I would work. And I was ready to give this up because I thought I needed a car.

A 1BR/1BA townhouse can run you a cool $600K in Capitol Hill. There really aren't too many stand alone residences in the Capitol Hill neighborhood, and prices are just stupid...

Glad I did not get the job though.

If I didn't do what I do, I would live in DC. I'm a minor history buff and there's a lot of it in DC and the surrounding areas.

Then again, if I didn't do what I do I might not be able to afford to live in DC...

[BigSteve]

Seriously, you need better BS.

Moi?

You're the one making idiotic, unsupported claims.

And you should stop. You're making yourself look foolish.

Well, you know... more foolish...

[late]

There is something about the inevitable...

Oh yeah, it's inevitable.

Incomes are declining, mostly due to the rich hogging an ever larger share of the pie.

Costs are going to keep going up, for the most part.

And we will get dragged into a climate change agreement. You guys really have no idea how much damage Trump has done.

The American way of life is based on cheap oil. As we move away from oil, there will be some changes. There will be a transitional era, as the poor buy the used vehicles left behind when the market adopts the new technologies.

But, because we are complete idiots, once that transition is over, it's gonna hurt.

I feel sorry for you, but you brought it on yourselves.

[Julian658]

One of the questions you should ask is, who is this for? Take high tech surveillance, as an example. You can use it strictly to help people, or you can use it to make the rich even more powerful, and make everyone else a second or third class citizen.

If you've ever been to Europe, you see bicycles everywhere, but few places have made transportation without cars safer and better than the Netherlands.This is how they do it, and why we should, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0GA901oGe4

The Netherlands is flat. Riding a bike in Amsterdam is a breeze. Try riding in San Francisco uphill.

[late]

The Netherlands is flat. Riding a bike in Amsterdam is a breeze. Try riding in San Francisco uphill.

I have an e-bike.

It eats hills for breakfast.

[late]

I don't know anyone who would agree with that, but it's always good when you can recognize your clan...

American isn't a clan.

If anyone wants to learn a little about that:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures/dp/0143122029/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=american+nations&qid=1577555731&sr=8-1

That's a fantastic book, everyone should read it.

[late]

Your comment, however, proves that you count yourself among idiots.

You said it...

[Drlee]

If the time comes when privately owned vehicles go away (and I don't think they ever will), that time will be long after our grandchildren's grandchildren have died of old age...

Car ownership has dropped 10% in recent years. That is very significant.

As self-driving or driverless cars become available private cars may well be relegated to obscurity far sooner than that. Indeed there is a factor that is rarely discussed in this argument. Once driver-less cars become readily available they will very likely, in fact they will have to be, safer than driver controlled cars. It may be that driver controlled cars go away because of the cost of insurance and the frustration of operating them on streets where the traffic is controlled with computer precision.

https://www.businessinsider.com/carpocalypse-cars-automobile-sales-data-us-europe-2019-3?r=US&IR=T

A 1BR/1BA townhouse can run you a cool $600K in Capitol Hill. There really aren't too many stand alone residences in the Capitol Hill neighborhood, and prices are just stupid...

The three bedroom I was looking at was about $650,000. It was affordable given what I would have been paid. Town houses are what is available on capital hill and that is fine with me. But the ability to walk to the National Gallery and lunch in the outdoor restaurants on the mall is wonderful. Worth trading my acre and larger single family home for a lot less money? Not to me. But then I go there for a visit and on work a couple of times a year or more.

[Politics_Observer]

I don't know, I consider America my tribe. That's the tribe I ultimately have to answer to. Human beings are tribal by nature.

[late]

I don't know, I consider America my tribe. That's the tribe I ultimately have to answer to. Human beings are tribal by nature.

Clan:
a group of close-knit and interrelated families

The point behind freedom of religion, and the other freedoms, is so that we wouldn't deteriorate into warring clans. To the Founding Fathers, the wars over religion were recent history.

[Pants-of-dog]

I have a horde of kids.

I have no trouble doing the shopping for the entire family with my bike.

If you live inside a city, you should only need a car if you also need a wheelchair of walker.

[Stormsmith]

. It became clear that eliminating the car (and renting when I needed to take a very long trip outside of the city) would allow me to spend another 200K on the house. This put me into a nice three bedroom house on Capital Hill within a few hundred yards of the capital building and easy walking distance to my office, shopping and all but a few of the places where I would work. And I was ready to give this up because I thought I needed a car. 

Its the same here. Our town is one of the most expensive in Canada. We couldn't afford our home today, but we built and paid for it as we built, which was just between the years when housing was relatively stable and then, prices just surged, so...no mortgage. We were dead lucky.

My best friends daughter, a psychiatric nurse and her hubby both hold well paying jobs. Daughter wanted a super grand house and now, they both have to drive 45 to get to work. I asked before if the kids had considered the cost of gas, ($1.49 per litre) plus the cost of blowing through 2 vehicles rather more quickly then they would in town. ( the loss of a car plus a loan for new one compared to a net gain of 10 to 12% in real estate) Mom said she didn't know, but she'd bring it up. Apparently daughter's biggest complaint is the time she spends driving and the fact that no one wants to drive out there.

But I don't think cars will go away. They'll just become battery operated. There likely will be less because fewer people can afford them. I think battery operated buses should be brought in, and free. The reduction of road maintance, the improvement to the atmosphere, the reduction of accidents etc. would justify it and probably pay for it.


Pants of Dog

You are to be congradulated!

[BigSteve]

Pants of Dog

You are to be congradulated!

Here's a recent photo of PoD returning home from a recent shopping trip to Safeway on 104th...

[Stormsmith]

Holy smokes! That's a lot ! I live on a ridiculously steep hill and can't imagine how long it would take me to push that 2-3 blocks uphill. Just thinking about it {{{esh}}}

Oh wait is that a motor scooter with an empty basket?