the difference between Marxist/Prussian socialism, Spengler - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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#13734803
...[T]he definitive word must be said about "Prussianism" and "Socialism." In 1919 I compared the two, the one a living idea and the other the catchword of a whole century, [72] and was - I am tempted to add: "of course" - not understood. People no longer know how to read - this great art, still known in the age of Goethe, has died out. They skim printed pages "mass-wise," and, as a result, the reader demoralizes the book. I showed that in the working class, as Bebel welded it into a powerful army, in its discipline and loyal subordination, its good comradeship, its readiness for the ultimate sacrifice, there still lived that Old-Prussian "style" which first proved itself in the battles of the Seven Years' War. What mattered then was the individual Socialist as a character, his "moral imperative," not the Socialism hammered into his head, which was a wholly un-Prussian mixture of foolish ideology and vulgar greed. I pointed out also that this type of being "in form" for a task was a tradition going back to the Teutonic Order, by which in the Gothic centuries - as again today - the frontier guard of the Faustian Culture was kept up against Asia. This ethical attitude, unconscious as is every genuine life-style, and therefore to be awakened and trained only by living example and not by talk and writing, stood forth in its splendour in August 1914 - the army had trained Germany - and was betrayed by the parties in 1918 when the State went under. Since then this disciplined will has again raised its head in the National movement; not in its programs and parties, but in the ethical attitude of an élite, as individuals; [73] and it is possible that, starting from this foundation, the German people may by perseverance be slowly trained for its difficult future. This is essential if we are not to succumb in the battles that lie ahead.

But the shallow-minded cannot get away from the Marxian thought of last century. Throughout the world they think of Socialism not as a moral attitude of life but as economic Socialism, Labour Socialism, as a mass ideology with material aims. Program Socialism of every sort is thinking from below, building on base instincts, canonizing the herd-feeling which everywhere today lurks behind the slogan of "overcoming individualism"; it is the contrary of Prussian feeling, which has livingly experienced through exemplary leaders the necessity of disciplined devotion and possesses accordingly the inward freedom that comes with the fulfilment of duty, the ordering of oneself, command of oneself, for the sake of a great aim.

Labour-Socialism in every form, on the other hand, is, as I have already shown, [74] definitely English in origin. It arose, about 1840, simultaneously with the victory of the joint-stock company and the rootless "financial" form of capital. [75] Both were the expression of Free Trade Manchesterism: this "white" Bolshevism is capitalism from below, wage-capitalism, just as speculative finance-capital in respect of its method is Socialism from above, from the stock exchange. Both grew out of the same intellectual root: thinking in money, [76] trading in money on the pavements of the world's capitals, whether as wage-levels or profits on exchange rates makes no odds. There is no contradiction between economic Liberalism and Socialism. The Labour market is the stock exchange of the organized proletariat. The trade unions are trusts for forcing up wages on the lines followed by oil, steel, and bank trusts of the Anglo-American type, whose finance-Socialism penetrates, dominates, sucks, and controls them to the point of systematic expropriation. The devastating dispossessing effect of bundles of shares and bonds, the separation of mere "credit" from the responsible directive work of the entrepreneur, who no longer knows to whom his work actually belongs, has not received anything like adequate consideration. Productive economy is in the last resort nothing but the will-less object of stock-exchange manoeuvres. It was only the rise of the share system to domination that enabled the stock exchange (formerly a mere aid to economy) to assume the decisive control of economic life. Finance-Socialists and trust magnates like Morgan and Kreuger correspond absolutely to the mass-leaders of Labour parties and the Russian economic commissars: dealer-natures with the same parvenu tastes. From both sides, today as in the days of the Gracchi, the conservative forces of the State - army, property, peasant, and manager - are being attacked.


But the Prussian style demands not only a mere precedence of higher policy over economics; it demands that the economic life should be disciplined by a powerful State, which is the precondition of free initiative in private enterprise - for, whatever else it may be, it is not a mere super-party, complete with program and ready to press organization to the point of abolishing the idea of property (Eigentum); which, precisely among Germanic peoples, denotes freedom of the economic will, and lordship over that which is one's own. [77] "Disciplining" is the training of a racehorse by an experienced rider and not the forcing of the living economic body into the strait-jacket of an economic plan or its transformation into a press-the-button machine. "Prussian" is also the aristocratic ordering of life according to the grade of achievement. Prussian is, above all, the undisputed precedence of foreign policy, the successful steering of the State in a world of states, over internal policy, which exists solely to keep the nation in form for this task and becomes mischievous and criminal as soon as it begins to follow independently its own ideological aims. Herein lies the weakness of most revolutions, whose leaders, having risen through demagogy and learnt nothing else, are unable to find their way from thinking on party lines to thinking in terms of statesmanship. This was the case with Danton and Robespierre. Mirabeau and Lenin died too soon, Mussolini was successful. But the future belongs to the great fact-men, now that the world-improvers, who have preened themselves on the stage of world history since Rousseau, have vanished and left no trace.



Prussian is, lastly, a character which disciplines itself, such as that of Frederick the Great, which he himself paraphrased as consisting in being the First Servant of the State. Such a servant is no lackey, but when Bebel opined that the German people had the soul of a lackey, he was right as far as the majority were concerned. His own party proved it in 1918. The lackeys of success are more numerous with us than elsewhere, although they have in all ages and all nations crowded the herd of humanity. It is a matter of indifference whether Byzantinism performs its orgies before money-bags, political success, a title, or merely Gessler's hat. When Charles II landed in England, there were suddenly no Republicans left. To be a servant of the State is an aristocratic virtue, of which few are possessed. If this is "Socialistic," it is a proud and exclusive Socialism for men of race, for the elect of life. Prussianism is a very superior thing which sets itself against every sort of majority- and mob-rule; above all, against the dominance of the mass character. Moltke, the great educator of the German officer, the finest example of true Prussianism in the nineteenth century, was thus constituted. Count Schlieffen summed up his personality in the motto: "Talk little, do much, be, rather than seem."

This idea of a "Prussian" existence will be the starting-point for the ultimate overthrowing of the World Revolution. There is no other possibility. I said, as far back as 1919: Not everyone is a Prussian who is born in Prussia; the type is possible anywhere in the white world and actually occurs, though rarely. It lies at the root of the provisional form of national movements everywhere - there is nothing definitive about them - and the question is to what extent it can be liberated from the quickly ageing, popular, party-democratic elements of Liberal and Socialist Nationalism that control it, for the time being. The silent national feeling of the English about 1900, which today has begun to waver, the boastful, shallow chauvinism of the French, so noisily in evidence in the Dreyfus Affair, were both of this order and found support, the one in the cult of the navy, the other in the army. America possesses nothing of this kind - "hundred-per-cent American" is a phrase - but she needs it if she is to endure as a nation at all after the approaching crash between crouching Communism and the high finance which is already undermined. The Prussian idea is opposed to finance-Liberalism as well as to Labour-Socialism. Every description of mass and majority, everything that is "Left," it regards as suspect. Above all, it is opposed to any weakening of the State and to the desecrating misuse of it for economic interests. It is conservative and "Right," and it grows out of whatever fundamental life-forces still exist in Nordic peoples: instinct for power and possessions; for possessions as power; for inheritance, [78] fecundity, and family, which three belong together; for distinctions of rank and social gradation, whose mortal enemy was (or is) Rationalism from 1750 to 1950. Present-day Nationalism is, together with the monarchical idea latent in it, a transition. It is a preliminary step towards Caesarism, no matter how far away that may seem. It is there that we find abhorrence of all Liberal and Socialist party systems, of every kind of popularity (which invariably compromises the object of it), of everything which rises up in masses and will have its say. This trait, though it may be buried deep under tendencies more in keeping with the age, has the future on its side - and the future's leaders. All really great leaders in history go "Right," however low the depths from which they have climbed. It is the mark of the born master and ruler. This applies to Cromwell and Mirabeau as much as to Napoleon. The riper the age, the more prospects does this road open up. The elder Scipio went under in the conflict between the traditions of his origins, which forbade an illegal dictatorship, and the historical position which he had obtained (without desiring it) through saving Rome from the Carthaginian danger. He died in a distant land. At that time the revolutionary movement was only just beginning to undermine the tradition-bound forms, so that the younger Scipio had still a very weak position against the Gracchi, but Sulla's was already a very strong one against Marius, and finally Caesar, who had begun as a Catilinarian, met with no more party opposition at all, for the Pompeians were not a party, but supporters of an individual. The World Revolution, strong as it may be at the beginning, ends, not in victory or defeat, but in resignation on the part of the forward-driven masses. Their ideals are not refuted, but merely become boring, and eventually no one can be excited about them. Anyone who talks about the end of the "bourgeoisie" writes himself down as still a proletarian, and the future is not for him. A "non-bourgeois" society can be maintained only by a Terror, and only for a few years at that, for presently people are sick of it - and incidentally the labour leaders will meanwhile have become new bourgeois. This is not a process that appeals to the taste of true leader-natures.


Socialism of every kind is today as antiquated as its first Liberal form and as everything else that is connected with party and program. The century of the worker cult, 1840 to 1940, is irrevocably ending, and those who acclaim "the worker" at this stage have no understanding of the time. This worker is stepping back into the whole of the nation, no longer its spoilt nurseling, but as the lowest grade in an urban society. The contrasts worked up in the class war will again become the permanent differences [79] of high and low, and will be accepted as such. It is the resignation of the Imperial period in Rome, the period in which there were no economic problems of this nature left. But how much can be destroyed and levelled down in the final stages of world anarchy! So much, indeed, that in certain white nations there will be no material left from which a Caesar could create his structure, his army - for armies will in future take the place of parties - and his State.
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By ozone
#13735462
Hitlerite or Prussian socialism was aimed at conquering the whole world organizing a war machine where resources were allocated only in artillery, tanks, planes and machine guns while half were allocated in food production to feed a multitude army.Marxists socialism was aimed to make USSR self-sufficent in food and capable of defending itself from invading forces. Military expansion was not on Marxist agenda. Imagine the dire consequences if the old Soviet Union had no intercontinental ballistic missiles. They should had been a colony of Israel and Germany. Prussian socialism was evil per se but Marxist socialism has all the attributes of goodness and humaneness.
By Fitzcarraldo
#13736997
Hitlerite or Prussian socialism was aimed at conquering the whole world organizing a war machine where resources were allocated only in artillery, tanks, planes and machine guns while half were allocated in food production to feed a multitude army.Marxists socialism was aimed to make USSR self-sufficent in food and capable of defending itself from invading forces. Military expansion was not on Marxist agenda. Imagine the dire consequences if the old Soviet Union had no intercontinental ballistic missiles. They should had been a colony of Israel and Germany. Prussian socialism was evil per se but Marxist socialism has all the attributes of goodness and humaneness.


Not that I am agreeing with you that Hitler's Germany was Prussian socialist or that I would have supported Operation Barbarossa, but Hitler in effect had two emergency situations to deal with: 1, deal with the internal subversives, the possibility of a destructive Bolshevik class war within Germany itself, and 2, Germany's submissive role in the world economy, being at the mercy of international finance capital. Both these political problems led to Germany invading from the East. Both were political emergencies needing drastic measures to resolve, which Hitler attempted.

Marxist socialism is not 'humane'; it calls for class annihiliation of its enemies. It is a total war political ideology.

And actually, only after Germany's de facto Total War entering (cf. Goebbel's speech) did German civilians really start to feel the consequences in terms of consumer products. The Soviet Union was in Total War mode since the 1930s I would say.
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By Potemkin
#13737080
And actually, only after Germany's de facto Total War entering (cf. Goebbel's speech) did German civilians really start to feel the consequences in terms of consumer products.

Britain had been fighting a Total War since at least 1940; the Nazis waited too long before doing the same. Considering that they had an ideology based on the glorification of war and conflict, the Nazis were strangely reluctant to fight a Total War. :eh:

The Soviet Union was in Total War mode since the 1930s I would say.

I would say since about 1928, after Stalin abolished the NEP and began the First Five Year Plan.
By Fitzcarraldo
#13737091
Britain had been fighting a Total War since at least 1940; the Nazis waited too long before doing the same. Considering that they had an ideology based on the glorification of war and conflict, the Nazis were strangely reluctant to fight a Total War.


Germany conquered Europe from 1939-41 with only ~40,000 military deaths; Total War was not necessary until the Red Army performed excellent c. 1942. Total War mobilisation was late, I agree, but not exceedingly. Hitler only rivals Napoleon for his conquests.

Hitler being the romantic idealist he was was not accustomed for Total War imo like Stalin was. He was still dreaming of building beautiful New Teutonic cities as late as March 1945, to the utter bemusement of Speer.
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By ozone
#13737141
Fitzcarraldo, if I were a "fascist in power" I can readily understand Hitler's animosity towards the Jewish communists. But not only Jews were communists in GErmany during his time. There were also German communists. Why annihilate the entire Jewish race including the apathetic, the apolitical and the "fascist or democrat" themselves. It is utterly devoid of logic. Nothing but pure evil.
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By Potemkin
#13737214
Germany conquered Europe from 1939-41 with only ~40,000 military deaths; Total War was not necessary until the Red Army performed excellent c. 1942. Total War mobilisation was late, I agree, but not exceedingly. Hitler only rivals Napoleon for his conquests.[sic]

I presume you mean that only Napoleon rivals Hitler for his conquests. If so, this is factually incorrect - Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan did rather well, as I recall, and their conquests were not reversed just a few years later.

Hitler being the romantic idealist he was was not accustomed for Total War imo like Stalin was. He was still dreaming of building beautiful New Teutonic cities as late as March 1945, to the utter bemusement of Speer.

In other words, he was a day-dreaming retard. :roll:
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By Ombrageux
#13737247
Spengler is someone I need to read, especially given my personal obsession with Prussia, the idea of Socialism, civilization, decadence and national cohesion.

Spengler was critical of the Nazis and extremely pessimist, rightly, regarding Germany's future even when they were in power.
By Fitzcarraldo
#13737275
I presume you mean that only Napoleon rivals Hitler for his conquests. If so, this is factually incorrect - Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan did rather well, as I recall, and their conquests were not reversed just a few years later.


The quality of the conquests of Napoleon and Hitler outweigh those two by far.

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