[Social_Critic]

Gilroy, come on, I didn't say socialism was impossible. I said I didn't think socialism can be implemented by force in the US, because the population has too many guns. So the "socialism implementing army" or SIA for short, would have its work cut out.

Now, I think it may be possible to sneak socialism in, say by saying you are a libertarian and then changing your stripes. Chavez did this in Venezuela, he claimed to be anti communist when he was running for the first time, then moved hard left and today he thinks he's a communist (not realizing his paragon of virtue, Fidel Castro, is an outdated dinosaur whose brother Raul is moving Cuba towards a fascist brand of capitalism).

[El Gilroy]

Well, saying socialism is only possible by extreme trickery or by force (outside the US, naturally) is basically calling it impossible, since either way pretty much invalidates the premise: It's no longer done for the people.

[Social_Critic]

Well, AndyH had it on the spot when he wrote the original piece. It's mighty hard to sell marxist style socialism to an educated population. And it's very hard to force it on people as well - you can do it by ouside invasion like the Ruskis did to Eastern Europe, but very few people vote for something like that.

And I never saw a majority in a fairly educated country with a middle class vote for a communist who declared he was communist. Why should they? Socialism marxist style has a lot of baggage, not only has it failed everywhere, it also tells people they won't be able to own their homes or get that little business they want to inherit from uncle charlie. So it's a non starter. Even in Venezuela (where I just fled from), the majority, when polled, say they oppose communism, even if they used to like Chavez (today, as per the latest polls, the majority is opposed to Chavez anyway).

[CounterChaos]

@Social_Critic...Is the addition of a VAT in your opinion stealth or "extreme trickery"?

[Social_Critic]

The addition of a Value Added Tax to the state's means to get money can be trickery if a party runs on a no tax platform. It is ok if the subject wasn't discussed, and if the VAT is offset by a reduction in other taxes. For example, the US could implement a Federal VAT with a cash distribution system for the states (say 1/3 of the VAT collected goes to the states distributed on a per capita basis), and the income tax is reduced accordingly by an equal amount. If a person ends with excess credits then those can be converted to a cash payment, so the VAT can be implemented without having riots.

[CounterChaos]

@Social_Critic...So you would be against any VAT specifically designed to improve social programs for the masses without a tax break for the capitalist elite included?



I don't believe in welfare, but I do believe in all fairing well. ~Sandori~