Devil's Excrement: Venezuela's Uneducated Socialists - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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By Eauz
#13739739
Social_Critic wrote:I lived in Cuba, and I lived in Russia. And I lived in Venezuela.
Something tells me that you either love to live in socialist states or you end up causing them to become socialist. Are you a secret agent that plants socialism in countries and then talks bad about socialism, so no one will link you to the evil doing?
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By ozone
#13739944
The way I see it, sir Eauz, you are completely paranoid. I studied his posts thoroughly. He was consistently anti-communist, anti-Fidel and anti-Hugo. Unless, he was given instructions to either be consistent or play Devil's Advocate to endear himself to American, British and Canadian spy agencies and end up as a successful recruit like Ana Montes. Give him the benefit of the doubt. sir Eauz.
By Revolutionary Mind
#13772516
Though not the specific topic, I often find myself wondering what would have become of the various socialist or communist experiments if the US had not... done the things they've done. Viva Chavez, may he return to good health quickly.
By Social_Critic
#13774878
Mind, Chavez is toast. His cancer is going to kill him. Right now Venezuela is floundering, the latest on the economy side:

1. They are issuing over $4 billion in bonds, to cover their deficit - at a time when oil prices are near record highs.
2. They issued a new law to control prices and profits. The new law has already had an impact, the shortages have increased, and store shelves are emptying. Spare parts and other imported goods are increasingly hard to find.
3. Inflation, nevertheless, is still raging, above 20 % (in some sectors, above 30 %) per year.
4. The crime wave continues. Yesterday an intercity bus was hijacked by three men as it exited Caracas (it was at a spot I used to drive through all the time, about 5 miles from ex-residence in Caracas). They shot a father and his 7 year old daughter, and a National Guardsman who was asleep as the holdup started. An ensuing shoot out between the three men and a second national guardsman resulted in one bad guy wounded, and several passengers wounded (as well as the father and daughter pair). The three men escaped, but they are searching hospitals for the one who was wounded. Today, Caracas is the capital city with the highest crime rate in the world - one big reason why I left and moved out of the country a few months ago.
5. Oil production continues to decline. The latest development is that PDVSA owes its private contractors and foreign partners in excess of $US 10 billion (that's American billions). Rafael Ramirez, PDVSA's president, says contractors are refusing to work for PDVSA as a result of US imperialist pressure on these companies. The dummy thinks people will forget he owes them $10 billion and will sign more contracts to get ripped off by PDVSA. Which is one reason I left, nobody is signing contracts, and consulting work in the oil patch or business areas is hard to come by. Hell, when companies ask me for advice regarding work in Venezuel I tell them to forget it, because the risk is too high, and they can't get any assurance they will get paid .
#13889510
Critic, id just like to say that while certain parts are not necessarily parallel, I'm not sure where u get off criticizing Hugo for that. i dont know where u live but in case u didn't know, my government is in over 13 trillion, and i heard that a while ago. and i know its still rising. 4 billion? peanuts my man. so viva Hugo. there are to few socialist states left. i only hope that his successor can pull Venezuela through these tough times. to be honest, I've never been much for criticizing communist states for their lack of rights such as speech. the man is being scrutinized by the international court, his elections have routinely been evaluated as fair and fraud free. so therefore his people support him perhaps not all of them, and perhaps a good deal through propaganda, but if their happy, well live and let live. its about time the U.S. stopped crushing promising socialist states. i only wish they had before Guatemala. and i also wish they'd stop harassing Cuba. but i digress.
#13896659
I don't think Venezuelans are happy with Hugo Chavez - I know the majority of the educated professional class isn't, and there's brain drain going on the likes of which we haven't seen since Fidel took over Cuba.

Let's look at figures, here's the results from a poll taken last fall:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-0 ... ancer.html

The poll shows Chavez' approval rating at 59 %, up 10 % since July. This means in July 2011 it was at 49 % - and this is a key figure. What happened to raise his popularity by 10 %? He has been throwing money like crazy, oil prices are high, and he's borrowing every dollar, euro, yen, and remimbi he can get a hold of.

But we also know his policies are leading to extremely high inflation, ranging between 25 and 30 %, and now there's a youthful center-left candidate who says he'll follow the Lula da Silva-Dilma Rouseff model, and moderate things while eliminating corruption and reducing inflation and so on. So the opposition has a pretty good candidate whose message gets a lot of traction with the lower classes, I think. And the upper classes are ready to vote for anybody as long as they get rid of Chavez. So this is going to get very very interesting.

In the end, I think Chavez will "win" if he's alive (he has had a bout of cancer and we lack details, he sure looks fat and bloated, there are rumours his kidneys failed). Why do I think he'll win? Because he'll rig the voting machines, or do whatever he has to do to "win". And if he dies before the elections, Diosdado Cabello, who has been named the vice President of Chavez' personal party (the PSUV) will make sure he gets the military to do a coup, name him president, and he'll install a Castroite style dictatorship. So all of this is for the birds, even if the people do go against Chavez, these fascists are going to stay in power. Mark my words.
#13898948
i have not looked into it myself but someone said that his past few elections have had UN observers and been judged to be not rigged. also im guessing but at this point 59 percent or for that mater 49 percent is probably a higher approval rating then our last few presidents have had. and finally just because i support Castro he has not been neccesarily bad leader. he has been not half bad to his people, they are educated, they have health care, and id guess a lot of their problems as far as shortages are due to our sanctions. despite whatever problems Cuba may have, any dissent is not powerful enough to either single handedly or with the aid of the U.S. (a chance the government would jump at) to overthrow him. hes set up a government that despite his having ruled for almost half a century will likely be able to function after his death. so with all due respect, back off my boy Fidel.
#13899886
i have not looked into it myself but someone said that his past few elections have had UN observers and been judged to be not rigged.


Sorry dude, but that's not true. I lived in Venezuela and I know exactly who came in to oversee the elections and who didn't, and the UN didn't come in. As a matter of fact, the last time I recall the UN doing an election was Angola, but I may be wrong.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I said he has moved his ratings up recently, didn't I? And now, based on what I'm hearing today I can add his ratings are going to plummet. I hear his cancer is acting up, and he sure looks bloated. A couple of people have said his kidneys are failing, some say he's getting pumped with steroids, but whatever the cause the guy looks like a bloated pig. So he's getting something or they are doing something to him, I don't think it's his diet.

I realize you are writing for Americans, so you use the American reference when you write. I do it sometimes, even though I write for a wider audience. All I can say your argument sure rings hollow with me, I don't know about the others. I happen to know Chavez is an incompetent fool when it comes to governance. And he's going down, either the cancer is going to off him, or he's going to head towards defeat, which means he'll go the military self coup route, and blow democracy to hell. After all, guys like Chavez are about themselves, and keeping their power. It's old hat, history repeats itself, he's just another tin horn dictator, fat, tired, and to be scorned by history as just another bufoon in a long line of Latin American bufoons.
#13900131
ultimately he may be. well see if what comes after him, like the other shams of democracy in south America that arise after a communist nation fail either of its own volition or by CIA coup, is that much better. also purely out of self interest and feel free to tell my to screw off but were u ever a communist in your life?
#13900271
But the sham of democracy is much more pronounced in a communist nation than it is in any other economic system. Cuba is an excellent example, it lacks democracy - they use a sham which allows those who are relligiously inspired by Marx to claim Cuba is a democracy, when it's a horrible dictatorship ruled by two dumb criminalls for the last 52 years.

And Venezuela is coming close to being a sham as well. I keep hearing from Chavez supporters "well, he won the elections". Yes he did. Chavez is an elected criminal. He may have been elected, but he is a criminal, and in so many ways. it would be easy under normal circumstances to jail him for life. In the US, under current US law and legal precedent, Chavez would have been executed for leading a military coup which failed and led to the loss of the lives of nearly 100 people. And if the Venezuelan government worked properly, investigations would show the Chavistas have stolen money in huge quantities.

There's enough stealing and law breaking done by those thugs to put them in jail forever. In China, they would be executed by the dozen. And the ones at the head of the line would be the main players: Chavez, Jaua, Cilia Flores, Barreto, Bernal, Chavez' family, and of course Diosdado Cabello, who today is the Chavista party's vice president and is well known to be a large scale thief.

Here's a reference and quote from WIKILEAKS about Cabello's corruption and fascist tendencies:

http://www.wikileaks.ch/cable/2009/07/09CARACAS918.html

In a lunch with EconCouns and Econoff on July 10,
XXXXXXXXXXXX alleged Minister of Public Works and Housing
Diosdado Cabello was expanding his network of corruption into
the financial sector. According to XXXXXXXXXXXX, Cabello and
several other former military officers who participated with
Chavez in his 1992 coup attempt (specifically Vice Minister
of Finance Alejandro Andrade, Governor of Aragua and former
Minister of Finance Rafael Isea, and Science and Technology
Minister Jesse Chacon) recently backed the purchase of
several small banks and insurance companies. The front man
for the group's foray into the financial sector, Ochoa
continued, is Pedro Torres Ciliberto, owner of the small,
Tachira-based investment bank Baninvest (to which he had
named Chacon's brother as president). XXXXXXXXXXXX
speculated the group was moving into the local financial sector in part to
gain easier access to arbitrage opportunities related to
Venezuela's currency controls, particularly if the Central
Bank began auctioning hard currency to financial institutions
(as has been rumored to be under consideration). XXXXXXXXXXXX
characterized Cabello's group as one of the three major poles
of corruption close to or within the GBRV. The second pole,
operating in the oil sector, is associated with Oil Minister
and PDVSA President Rafael Ramirez, and the third, operating
in the food distribution sector, is associated with "Mercal
King" Ricardo Fernandez.

¶2. (C) On the political front, XXXXXXXXXXXX argued the "fascist and
military" trend associated with Cabello was gaining
ascendancy within Chavismo. (Note: By invoking the term
fascist, XXXXXXXXXXXX was referring to the movement's desire for
authoritarian government control over society and the economy
in a way that brooks no dissent. End note.) He
characterized Cabello's strident speech in the National
Assembly July 9 outlining increased state control over the
media (ref A) as an indication of this ascendancy. Another
indication, XXXXXXXXXXXX continued, were reports from his financial
sector contacts that former Vice President Jose Vicente
Rangel was a partner in Cabello's group's investments (or at
least allowing his money to be managed by Torres Ciliberto).
In tandem with the rise of the fascist/military trend, XXXXXXXXXXXX
argued, the two key representatives of the "traditional
Marxist left" in Chavez's cabinet, Planning Minister Jorge
Giordani and Finance Minister Ali Rodriguez, were losing
influence, with Rodriguez's health in decline and Giordani
"looking to get out."
#13901278
He may have been elected, but he is a criminal, and in so many ways.
If he is "in so many ways" a criminal, why are you unable to specify at least a single of these "ways" ?

In the US, under current US law and legal precedent, Chavez would have been executed for leading a military coup which failed and led to the loss of the lives of nearly 100 people.
What the frak ? Thats not a crime. Just incompetence, bad luck, etc.

Otherwise pretty much ALL presidents since WW2 would have died from the death penalty.

And if the Venezuelan government worked properly, investigations would show the Chavistas have stolen money in huge quantities.
Sorry, but thats just a claim, but not solid evidence.
#13901353
negotiator, who said I was unable to describe why Chavez is a criminal? I said in many ways because I wanted to keep my writing crisp and to the point. The reasons why Chavez is a criminal range from the failed coup to the abuses of human rights, which are too numeours to count, to the theft of huge sums of money from the national treasury. Once Chavez dies of cancer, and his regime is history, there will be investigations, and the man will be scorned as a thief and a criminal by history, as he should.

I know the above isn't sufficient. So would you like for me to open a thread with the title Chavez Indictment and then we go at it? I got tons of material. :(
#13901728
i would like for you to stop bringing cuba into it. i cant make you but i personally support castro and what hes done. and so what if its not a true democracy, i personally dont have a problem with that so long as it fulfills its communist ideals and purpose. which it generally has and will continue to do.
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By starcraftzzz
#13902059
Imperial Spaghetti wrote:
What makes you believe that pure socialism in the way you intend it will happen? Everywhere people tried their luck with it, (i.e. USSR, Venezuela, North Korea) the people ended up much worse than when they started. What Social Critic believes is that people shouldn't start out with socialist ideologies because it always gets out of hand, and the blatant proof of that is right in our geopolitical history.

As is the case of Venezuela the people aren't worse off. I fully accept your argument that eventually they might be worse off but saying they are currently is a 100% lie.
#13902098
Omegasword, you said:

i would like for you to stop bringing cuba into it. i cant make you but i personally support castro and what hes done. and so what if its not a true democracy,


I can only reply as gently as i can that I won't stop bringing Cuba into it for two reasons:

1. Cuba and Venezuela are closely linked. There are tens of thousands of Cubans in Venezuela, and they provide Chavez with key support, such as providing intelligence, monitoring the internet and telephones, and of course eavesdropping directly on the opposition. On the other hand, Chavez funnels billions of USD to Cuba, to prop up the Castro brothers. In a sense, Cuba has become a parasite feeding off Venezuela, and it has managed to enter the host's brain center, where it sits influencing the host to send more money and oil.

2. I was born in Cuba, and I have a very close and personal , and very adversarial, relationship with the Castro brothers. Also, as a Cuban, the so what if it's not a democracy doesn't sell very well.

So if you want to hang around Politics Forum and discuss things with me, be prepared to discuss both Venezuela and Cuba, or else you'll lose the debate.

:|
#13902296
Social_Critic wrote: Once Chavez dies of cancer, and his regime is history, there will be investigations, and the man will be scorned as a thief and a criminal by history, as he should.
Well, I guess all I can do then is wait. As I dont understand neither spanish nor portugese (and I dont know which of the two they speak in Venezuela, either), all my information source about these issues is Wikipedia (and we all know how unreliable this source is).

omegaword wrote: if its not a true democracy, i personally dont have a problem with that so long as it fulfills its communist ideals and purpose
Then I cant take you serious any more. Democracy is a human right and nothing optional to me.
#13902338
As is the case of Venezuela the people aren't worse off. I fully accept your argument that eventually they might be worse off but saying they are currently is a 100% lie.


But the people of Venezuela are definitely a lot worse off with Chavez and his "socialism of the 21st century" than without it. You see, any improvements in Venezuela's economy are solely and only due to the huge increase in oil prices, which have more than quintupled during Chavez' term. Given that Venezuela's economy lives and dies with oil prices, it's not surprising to see some economic growth when cash flow per barrel is so much higher.

There's also a misconception on many foreign communists' part (by foreign communist I mean non Venezuelans who are radical leftists). The foreign companies operating in Venezuela took a share of the profits, but this share wasn't that high, with a very few exceptions (companies operating very marginal oil fields with very high costs and depreciation were taking as much as 60 % of the gross, but their investments sucked, and overall they were in the red, having written down their investments and taking huge losses).

Now, if you knew what I know, then you wouldn't foolishly say anything about a lie, because it's evident you got your head in the clouds when it comes to Venezuela. To put it simply, under just about any other regime Venezuelans, and this includes the poor, would have done a lot better, because there would have been more investment, more production, and definitely a lot less corruption and waste. And I'm sure they wouldn't have steered billions of dollars to subsidize those creepy Cubans who run things in Havana.
#13902705
omegaword wrote: if its not a true democracy, i personally dont have a problem with that so long as it fulfills its communist ideals and purpose
Then I cant take you serious any more. Democracy is a human right and nothing optional to me.[/quote]

perhaps. but i dont think so. democracies main function is to either allow the people to get the right person to the top or if the wrong person ends up there then they have no one else to blame. that may be an ideal government (when the right person is up there) but that doesnt mean a good leader cant rule through an authoritarian regime. myself i am pro democratic, but only because i think that it is most likely to get good leaders of the government.
#13902772
Social_Critic wrote:But the people of Venezuela are definitely a lot worse off with Chavez and his "socialism of the 21st century" than without it. You see, any improvements in Venezuela's economy are solely and only due to the huge increase in oil prices, which have more than quintupled during Chavez' term. Given that Venezuela's economy lives and dies with oil prices, it's not surprising to see some economic growth when cash flow per barrel is so much higher.

Under Chaves Venezuela has gone from one of the poorest countries in Latin America to one of the richest.
Venezuelans economy has expanded at 5% despite the huge fall in oil prices; try to blame that on rising oil prices
Social_Critic wrote:There's also a misconception on many foreign communists' part (by foreign communist I mean non Venezuelans who are radical leftists). The foreign companies operating in Venezuela took a share of the profits, but this share wasn't that high, with a very few exceptions (companies operating very marginal oil fields with very high costs and depreciation were taking as much as 60 % of the gross, but their investments sucked, and overall they were in the red, having written down their investments and taking huge losses).

How about you post a link tot he share that foreign oil companies took and let us judge if ti is high or not that is unless you are again spewing pure bs
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