[Spotts]

I'm a little new to the whole socialism idea...

I think its good in theory, almost perfect, actually

and the only problem I have with it is that the leaders were all corrupt in some way, shape, or form. That's why I think it hasn't succeeded very well. If there was an honest leader, socialism would prevail.

I sound like an idealist.

But I don't want to be branded as a "socialist" or "communist".

So I've come to the forum. Any help?

[Paradigm]

Welcome. Consider libertarian socialism.

[Spotts]

Can you explain the concept of it, wikipedia isn't helping

[Paradigm]

Libertarian socialism, otherwise known as anarchism, is a kind of "socialism from below." It lacks a leader or separate political class, and instead involves free association and direct democracy based on consensus. The means of production are held in common, and production is coordinated among workers through non-hierarchical federations. This decentralized, non-hierarchical system gets rid of the problem of corrupt leaders that you brought up.

[The Immortal Goon]

It's all somewhat relative.

Why do you think the leaders have been corrupt?

Also, I'd urge you to consider two things:

1. Socialism probably hasn't really existed on the planet in the marxist sense:

Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?

No. By creating the world market, big industry has already brought all the peoples of the Earth, and especially the civilized peoples, into such close relation with one another that none is independent of what happens to the others.

Further, it has co-ordinated the social development of the civilized countries to such an extent that, in all of them, bourgeoisie and proletariat have become the decisive classes, and the struggle between them the great struggle of the day.

2. Socialist governments (socialist in the same sense that a christian is not Jesus of Nazareth) have not developed in a vacuum. Not only have they been constantly harassed and invaded, but what you often learn about them as a result is distorted by the governments a generation later. Lenin, for instance, lost more arguments with the assembly than he won. Stalin won all of them, of course, and both Stalin and the west tended to lump Lenin and Stalin as virtually the same person when they were not, their situations were not the same, and the countries they were over were not.

I would be curious for someone learning an orientation such as you to read something I've been musing about for the last few months:

The Connolly DeLeon debate.

If you are inclined to do so, I would like to ask you:

1. Who do you side with in the three principle arguments?
2. Do you find any relevancy today?

Finally, the best advice I could give is to not find an "ism" to be dogmatic about. Read everything. Learn everything.

[Beren]

The Political Personality Quiz and The Political Compass may help you.

[The Immortal Goon]

I beg you not to take the political compass test.

It's Libertarian propaganda that perpetuates ignorance.

The kind of ridiculous libertarian Newspeak they peddle makes my students fucking retarded. They'll write things like, "Napoleon was the first socialist in power," and, "Bismark, a socialist himself, hunted down other socialists." Or, "The Catholic Church wanted socialist policies." Because in libertarian Newspeak, "big government" means, "socialist." It makes absolutely not sense at all, but libertarians can then pretend Hitler wasn't a rightest despite three hundred years of history to the contrary.

So I guess if you want to wallow in ignorance, the political compass is a great way to go.

Please don't.

I would literally beg you not to if I could do so effectively on the internet.

[Beren]

The Political Compass is actually not about whether you're a socialist or not, it's just really a compass which shows how much pro-capital or pro-labour and how much authoritarian/statist or libertarian you are in general. It's fun to do and it can be a good start to realize where you belong basically.

[omegaword]

i am a democratic socialist. i think that through a system of check/balances like those in democracies can keep down corruption to a reasonable level. i also believe in high taxes for free commodities (electricity, water heat, possibly luxuries if a family is productive enough). to make sure people work, those who really work will be given the above commodities for productiveness. there are more details but thats the low down.

[Cartertonian]

I guess if you want to wallow in ignorance, the political compass is a great way to go.

I've never regarded it as being quite as biased as you seem to describe, TIG. It's not as excrutiatingly, obviously, right-wing-fucktard biased as a Nolan Chart, etc.

The problem with it is actually not a problem with it, at all. The problem is with the lack of any credible alternative.

As far as this thread goes, my personal entreaty would be for you not to 'side' with anyone. As soon as you align yourself to an ideology it becomes, 'my ideology - right or wrong' and you descend into the pit of intellectual tribalism.

[tofu2011]

i am a democratic socialist. i think that through a system of check/balances like those in democracies can keep down corruption to a reasonable level. i also believe in high taxes for free commodities (electricity, water heat, possibly luxuries if a family is productive enough). to make sure people work, those who really work will be given the above commodities for productiveness. there are more details but thats the low down.

High taxes for free commodities? So erm there not free then?

I just finished that political personality quiz and I think it's better then the compass, at least I think it actually gave me a result I expected.

[tofu2011]

By the way everyone should look at this: http://www.timgroseclose.com/calculate-your-pq/

[Spotts]

Why do you think the leaders have been corrupt?

I guess I don't have any strong reasons for thinking that, just a skewed view of what socialism is, partially because I'm an american. But I have an open mind. I don't think socialism is just a "terrible thing" and we should abolish it from the earth. If there were any real, valid reasons, they'd be because a lot of the countries that have tried it [socialism] haven't benefited from it in the long run. And I blame that on the leaders, in my opinion.

And I'll check it out, thanks!

[Spotts]

And by the way, tofu has a point, not to be an ass...

[tofu2011]

Take a look at this Spotts:

[Spotts]

I liked it

He has a good point, and it's kinda how I see things. Thanks for the link

[Negotiator]

If our leaders would be perfect, we would have never needed an alternative to monarchy.

Socialism, to me, is the theoretical idea of a society without dependency and exploitation. It has never been realized yet.

The sowjet union was a planned economy. Planned economies are not socialism to me. Planned economies have been tried in democracies (the UK between the world wars) and fascist dictatorships (nazi germany). Nobody believes these countries have been socialist. Well ok some get worked up upon the fact the NSDAP (nazi party) was called "national socialist german worker party", but lets ignore the really stupid people.

[omegaword]

High taxes for free commodities? So erm there not free then?

I just finished that political personality quiz and I think it's better then the compass, at least I think it actually gave me a result I expected.[/quote]

the purpose of this is to make sure that the money goes into a controlled direction and lets the government and corporations be free of the influence that these people could have with their money here. they still get some luxuries but cannot form an aristocracy of wealth like they do here in America.

[tofu2011]

Honestly can you rewrite that, I am interested in your viewpoint.

[apparatchik]

Remain democratic capitalist and mind your own business. Do not envy those super-rich capitalists. You cannot handle the problems they have. As the Bible said, "Each has his own (burdensome) responsibility". I am happy here in the company's mail room handling and distributing mail and photocopying and assembling documents from 6 am -10 pm. Nobody bothers me. I am allowed to have the radio blasting full volume the whole working day. If George Bush would offer me 10 million dollars to swap jobs with him, I would say, "Keep your 10 million dollars". I am happy where I am.