I would like to better understand socialism - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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#13932106
I just have a couple of questions about socialism.

What prevents somebody from leaching off the state?
How will we move forward without any personal incentives?
How can a government effectively take control of the lives of each of its citizens?
Is there any form of private property or ownership of anything?
Is there room for a private sector?
How do government jobs provide economic growth when employees are all paid in tax money?
#13932206
What prevents somebody from leaching off the state?


Laws and the persons supposed to apply them.

How will we move forward without any personal incentives?


Whatever version of socialism you can come up with will not have the effect to annihilate personal incentives... :knife:

How can a government effectively take control of the lives of each of its citizens?


A government cannot with the existing technology and no government should try anyway... that's not either the purpose of socialism.

Is there any form of private property or ownership of anything?


I don't see why socialism should abolish private property, my opinion on what socialism should be is that of one socialism where private property exists but is not sanctified to the point where it can be a burden to the society as a whole, as it is today in our societies.

Is there room for a private sector?


Some competition is always healthy. Private or public monopolies are not but i rather have public monopolies which are accountable to the citizens than private monopolies which are not. Socialists should rather seek an economic model without monopolies.

How do government jobs provide economic growth when employees are all paid in tax money?


Well, if all the jobs are paid with tax money, it's kinda like state-capitalism i suppose, the economy growth with the growth of productivity. But i don't think that socialism should be state-capitalism :|
#13932210
Socialism is the application of labor theory of value to the relations of production in order to overcome commodity fetishism and achieve permanent revolution.

That should answer all your questions. If you're unfamiliar with a particular phrase, look it up.
#13932229
maxstep wrote:I just have a couple of questions about socialism.
What prevents somebody from leaching off the state?

That depends on the system, and preferences I'll just list a bunch of ways
1) A broad tax base meaning every pays taxes.
2) Most benefits apply only to workers or former workers SS is an example
3) Requirements that one be looking for a job to get benefits.
4) Limits on the amount of benefits someone can get

maxstep wrote:How will we move forward without any personal incentives?

Socialism doesn't eliminate personal incentives. People will still chose to be doctors, scientists because 1) Social status, 2) Its what they like doing, and 3) Under a general socialistic society compensations do not need to be the same.
Most socialists advocate higher taxes on the extremely rich, of which since the extremity rich do not make much money from working there are few if any negative externalities in taxes them.

maxstep wrote:How can a government effectively take control of the lives of each of its citizens?

Where did you get the idea that socialism=governments tells people what they do 24/7?

maxstep wrote:Is there any form of private property or ownership of anything?

Sure why the hell not.

maxstep wrote:Is there room for a private sector?

I'd say yes. Basically there is room for a private sector in any industry were it is shown that the private sector does better then the government.

maxstep wrote:How do government jobs provide economic growth when employees are all paid in tax money?

Because the government better manages certain sectors of the economy. Some examples of sectors were the government is far superior/more efficient then the private sector include, health care, insurance, utilities (energy/water), prisons/courts, charity/welfare, and retirement systems (SS)
#13932359
maxstep wrote:Thanks for the replys. When I asked how the government controls the lives of its citizens, I guess I worded that kind of weirdly. I meant to ask how a government keeps the peace so to say. How crime and punishment work.


Marx believed jurisprudence is a class interest. When the dictatorship of the proletariat arrives, there will be no class conflict, so everyone's class interest will be the same.
#13932381
What prevents somebody from leaching off the state?


The law as Lenin said, "he who does not work shall not eat." In a state with 100% employments, whether in work or looking after children how do you think society will view those too lazy to work (not that many people like that exist anyway)?

People idle and unemployed is part of capitalism not socialism.

How will we move forward without any personal incentives?


:eh:

We wouldn't move forwards at all. What is you point? There are personal incentives under socialism. Do you think that the USSR payed street sweepers and nuclear physicists the same wage? :lol:

How can a government effectively take control of the lives of each of its citizens?


What has this got to do with socialism?

Is there any form of private property or ownership of anything?


No, the evil socialist government will take everything from your toothbrush to the computer you are typing on to your treasured love letters from a partner. :roll:

Is there room for a private sector?


Read for your self.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy

How do government jobs provide economic growth when employees are all paid in tax money?


What has this got to do with socialism? :?:
#13932662
A few things you must consider:

Socialism is a mode of production. Socialists, those that want socialism, study history generally–and the history of capitalism specifically.

One of the largest divide amongst socialists today is whether or not there has been "socialism in one state." It's impossible to say, but I get the general feeling that most socialists would say there has not been and could not be as socialism rises from capitalism (in the same way capitalism rises from feudalism and feudalism from slavery) and capitalism is a global system. However, there are those that hold on to the idea of socialism within a state.

Because of the nature of this argument, the answers of the questions you posted will be based upon who takes which side in the argument. Again, at the basic level socialist theory is an analysis of capitalism, not an overt attempt to create a carefully mapped out alternative. In addition to the Manifesto, you might also read these pieces. Marx's is the most difficult and longest of the group. The rest can easily be read in a single sitting.

Engels, Principles of Communism
Marx, Wage, Labor, and Capital
Connolly, State Monopoly verses Socialism
[quote=http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1934/08/ame.htm]Trotsky, If America Should go Communist[/quote]
#13932984
maxstep wrote:What prevents somebody from leaching off the state?
How does one leach off the state when it does not exist?

maxstep wrote:How will we move forward without any personal incentives?
How is personal incentive defined? Before the development of capitalist thought, people progressed forward for various reasons. Who is to say this would no longer continue?

maxstep wrote:How can a government effectively take control of the lives of each of its citizens?
Because the citizens would be in control of the government.

maxstep wrote:Is there any form of private property or ownership of anything?
Of course, how would I do anything? Am I going to have to share the 1 slice of ham with everyone in the whole city?

maxstep wrote:Is there room for a private sector?
No, there is room for collective structured society to allocate production in order to reduce the amount of necessary work. This opens up more private time for the individual to pursue their interest.

maxstep wrote:How do government jobs provide economic growth when employees are all paid in tax money?
There would be no government jobs, only collective structured employment. There could be some form of tax, but it really depends upon what it is necessary for.
#13933263
Eauz wrote:Of course, how would I do anything? Am I going to have to share the 1 slice of ham with everyone in the whole city?


Just to add to this in order to clarify a very crucial point: there is a conceptual distinction, often ignored or often simply misunderstood, between private property and personal property. A home, a sandwich, a pair of shoes, etc. is personal property which would be protected. A rental unit, a factory complex, a warehouse or shipping unit, a printing press, etc., is private property which would be socialized.
#13938903
maxstep wrote:What prevents somebody from leaching off the state?


There are plenty of proposals to explain that, including maintaining the wage-employment model. Socialism does not require the abolition of wages and currencies, it merely requires those wages to be set democratically rather than privately. A company wholly owned by its workers, for example, would be a socialist institution. A private company controlled by the government wouldn't be.

On the other hand, there is another perspective suggesting that such measures wouldn't be required at all. What's the point in trying to force the unwilling to work? You waste a huge amount of effort doing it, and the practice requires you to adopt highly inefficient forms of institutional organization--like top-down hierarchies. If people genuinely don't want to do anything, I guess that ought to be their right. I don't think most people would genuinely opt to do nothing once the novelty of being able to do nothing worse off. That would be pretty boring. But even if I'm wrong on that, we've already entered a stage of economic development where we don't actually need most people to work anymore. Most of our workforce is either there unwillingly (the marginally employed) or employed merely forcing others to work (management). We employ way more people than our economy would really need to in order to maintain the same productive output.

It's kind of like farming--two thousand years ago, 90% of the population had to be engaged in agriculture just to feed the other 10%. Now it's something like 3% of the population feeding the other 97%. That sort of change in productivity happens elsewhere as well. We're not very far off from having basic knowledge work replaced by computers, for example. We're going to see massive amounts of unemployment when that transition occurs, and that's almost certainly going to start in earnest before the end of the decade. There's no real point in trying to force people to work when they can be fairly easily replaced by computers and advanced tools; at that point we're merely employing people out of habit, and that's going to put our economy at a huge disadvantage. When that happens, socialism will be the only rational option--and that may well include giving lots of people the freedom not to work.

How will we move forward without any personal incentives?


The purpose of socialism is to increase the importance of personal incentives. By giving people meaning in what they do, and paying them fairly for labor provided. Capitalism destroys personal incentives in favor of private interests.

How can a government effectively take control of the lives of each of its citizens?


The government taking control of everyone would not be in-line with socialism. The whole point of socialism is the empowerment of the worker to control his own life--not to have it controlled by central bureaucrats.

Is there any form of private property or ownership of anything?


As another poster noted, there is an important distinction between personal property (what you control because you use it) and private property (what you control because a government has stepped forward to protect your claim). Personal property ceases to be yours when it is no longer used (when you move out, when you leave it on the sidewalk, whatever), private property is yours until you sell it to someone else--the claim is durable.

Is there room for a private sector?


That question isn't really meaningful from a socialist perspective. If you mean "private sector" as "firms engaging in economic activity not directly controlled by a government," then absolutely, that's the only thing that would exist in a socialist society. If you mean "private sector" as "firms engaging in economic activity [n]wholly or mostly owned as private property by investors[/b]," then no. The critical distinction here is the ownership--in a socialist society, the workers using a particular bit of capital would be the immediate "owners" of it.

How do government jobs provide economic growth when employees are all paid in tax money?


How can a government that doesn't exist provide jobs? Socialism != "Government Jobs".
#13950107
maxstep wrote:I just have a couple of questions about socialism.

What prevents somebody from leaching off the state?

You will have to work, or else.

maxstep wrote:How will we move forward without any personal incentives?

complex one. Culture will change, personal incentive will still be there but different, the material aspect will be phased out as want is eliminated. There will be innovation boards, efficiencies form a planned economy.

maxstep wrote:How can a government effectively take control of the lives of each of its citizens?

that's not really what socialism is about, it's really the other way round, socialism is when the masses take control of everything

maxstep wrote:Is there any form of private property or ownership of anything?

of course. It is the means of production which is not privately owned, and ultimately I suppose things like housing in the sense that you dont literally own it.

maxstep wrote:Is there room for a private sector?

short term, definitely, long term, not really

maxstep wrote:How do government jobs provide economic growth when employees are all paid in tax money?


In the long run there wont be any money. Or growth. We will have a sustainable economy which provides everything everyone needs and most of what they want. There will be no taxes. There will be human beings and nature. And a lot of robots to do the shit jobs.
#14053149
maxstep wrote:I just have a couple of questions about socialism.


Absolutely, I'll answer.

What prevents somebody from leaching off the state?


There wouldn't be a state under socialism.

How will we move forward without any personal incentives?


There would still be social incentives as well as personal pride. I thing you should be more specific so that I can better answer you.

How can a government effectively take control of the lives of each of its citizens?


Why would you think that it would? I would say that most socialists do not support any sort of authoritarian governmental structure, I sure don't. I want more democracy, not less.

Is there any form of private property or ownership of anything?


The only thing that people cannot own is the means of production. You have your own tooth brush and clothes and what not. You just can't own a factory.

Is there room for a private sector?


Not how you mean. In some versions of socialism there is still a market as opposed to planning (which can be de-centralized or centralized) and people can own their own businesses. What would be forbidden would be wage-labor, since that would make the owner a capitalist and would be effectively allowing capitalism into the system. I think that the best way to explain it would be to say that if there were to be anything close to a private sector, all the businesses would have to be workers' co-operatives.

How do government jobs provide economic growth when employees are all paid in tax money?


Investment and maintenance stimulate growth but under Socialism your question wouldn't make much sense.

I hope this helped.
#14078314
Replaceing private boss with state (/party) is not socialism. It's that simple.


The party is the will of the working class made manifest, it is the ultimate authority you heretic! Trotskyite counterrevolutionary revisionism is the biggest danger to the working class not the communist party.
#14078344
Ah I see, you are a anarchist, in that case your views are to be expected. :) You can just stand by and let people who don't have a grudge against organising do the heavy lifting.
#14078442
stsoc wrote:Again and again, people say socialism and talk about state capitalism.


True.

stsoc wrote:Capitalism is when workers have a boss. Socialism is when workers don't have a boss. Replaceing private boss with state (/party) is not socialism. It's that simple.


False. Capitalism is when workers have a boss from another class. Socialism is the management of the workers by the workers. Communism is when workers don't have a boss.

This has been said since Marx, if not before.

Decky wrote:Trotskyite counterrevolutionary revisionism


Is as meaningless as, "Stalinist fascist reactionarism."

stsoc wrote:Trotsky wasn't a socialist, he was a bolshevik.


Bolsheviks were socialists.

stsoc wrote:The people who abolished worker councils, and brutally suppressed workers' autonomous organisations in Kronstadt and Ukraine are nowhere near socialist.


That position has been thoroughly debunked. I understand a lot of people didn't like Trotsky's point of view (which is worth reading, 1, 2) as it could be seen as him saying anything to defend himself, but since the Soviet archives have been opened, everything he said has lined up. Even anti-Bolshevik anti-Trotsky anarchist appologists have admitted as much when writing from the archive, like Paul Avrich's Kronstad 1921.

"Kronstadt 1921"
#14078588
Decky wrote:Ah I see, you are a anarchist, in that case your views are to be expected. :) You can just stand by and let people who don't have a grudge against organising do the heavy lifting.

Anarchists are socialists/ communist that don't want to participate in the state in any way. I'm for establishing communism by a party taking state power, and also, I'm not against the state per se, I'm basically a Lassallian on that question; so- I'm not really an anarchist.

The Immortal Goon wrote:False. Capitalism is when workers have a boss from another class. Socialism is the management of the workers by the workers.

Interesting how you switcherd from "boss" to "menagement". If the managment is not on a hierarchical upper position (but is considered a job like any other in the collective), then there is no boss, and that can be called socialism. And my simple definition stands- if there is a boss, that's capitalism.

Communism is when workers don't have a boss.

Socialism is a non-hierarchical economy where workers are free to associate into Proudhonian co-ops, Bakuninist collectives, Kropotkinist communes, or intentional communities (what we call 'communes' today).

Bolsheviks were socialists.

I disagree. They were (/are) state capitalist.

That position has been thoroughly debunked.

It has been debunked that bolsevik destroyed toilers' organisations in Kronstadt and Ukraine?
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