Can A Socialist Be A Nationalist? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14347613
I have often heard many times people say that a true socialist can never be a nationalist. This is because they believe that the working class have no nationality and that they are all unified by their class, not by their nationality or any other factors.

Yet we have seen instances in history where nationalists were also socialists. Jawaharlal Nehru, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Sukarno, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, Michel Aflaq, Subhas Chandra Bose and Kwame Nkrumah were all nationalists but at the same time they were also socialists.

Was there a contradiction between them being nationalists and being socialists?

Can a socialist be a nationalist?
#14347637
Nehru was a liberal (a very very left liberal but liberal) while its hard to pin point Bose's ideology,(still a very controversial topic) he will come off as a fascist only. The forward Bloc party started by Bose still exists today and they reject marxist socialism, calling it foreign and last weapon of Europe against Asia. They argue for something akin to socialism but it would be completely Indian and suited to India only, I don't think this theory has been defined though i.e. what would this Indian socialism entail.

Similarly I won't call any one on your list to be socialist, if any one comes to me as self identified socialist with nationalist fervour, I will oppose him and won't call him a socialist.
#14347659
fuser wrote:Nehru was a liberal (a very very left liberal but liberal) while its hard to pin point Bose's ideology,(still a very controversial topic) he will come off as a fascist only. The forward Bloc party started by Bose still exists today and they reject marxist socialism, calling it foreign and last weapon of Europe against Asia. They argue for something akin to socialism but it would be completely Indian and suited to India only, I don't think this theory has been defined though i.e. what would this Indian socialism entail.


Even though Nehru was a liberal there can be no denial that he was a socialist and admired the Soviet Union.

If I am not mistaken Bose also admired the Soviet Union.

fuser wrote:Similarly I won't call any one on your list to be socialist, if any one comes to me as self identified socialist with nationalist fervour, I will oppose him and won't call him a socialist.


But a lot of them called themselves socialists.

Do you mean to say that a real socialist can never be a nationalist or that their socialism was not authentic because it was mixed with nationalism?
#14347669
Even though Nehru was a liberal there can be no denial that he was a socialist and admired the Soviet Union.

If I am not mistaken Bose also admired the Soviet Union.


Yes, but admiration is not really reflective of his ideology. He actually banned Communist party of India just after Independence. CPI was banned during British rule too btw.

The admiration that USSR enjoyed in whole of Global South was more because of USSR's stand on Imperialism which made her side with the global south where these countries can't really look up to their former colonial masters and their allies in west.

But a lot of them called themselves socialists.


Yes but socialism is probably one of the most abused word.

Do you mean to say that a real socialist can never be a nationalist or that their socialism was not authentic because it was mixed with nationalism?


Basically, yes. International Proletarian unity comes before any concept of nation or nationalities.
#14347704
Socialism and nationalism are compatible, in fact the former almost always leads to the latter. Socialism can be internationalist but not transnationalist.
#14347708
fuser wrote:Yes, but admiration is not really reflective of his ideology. He actually banned Communist party of India just after Independence. CPI was banned during British rule too btw.


Nasser also persecuted communists but he still claimed to follow socialist policies. However if I am not mistaken the Egyptian Arab socialists claimed to be socialist as a means of developing the economy and not because socialism was an end in itself.

It seems to me undeniable that Nehru considered himself a socialist. Is there anything to suggest otherwise even if he was not an orthodox one?

fuser wrote:The admiration that USSR enjoyed in whole of Global South was more because of USSR's stand on Imperialism which made her side with the global south where these countries can't really look up to their former colonial masters and their allies in west.


I think so.

fuser wrote:Yes but socialism is probably one of the most abused word.


Is it possible they did not understand what socialism actually was? Maybe they thought they were socialists but were not really so.

fuser wrote:Basically, yes. International Proletarian unity comes before any concept of nation or nationalities.


In that case how would you explain this phenomena of post-colonial socialism mixed with nationalism?

Ombrageux wrote:Socialism and nationalism are compatible, in fact the former almost always leads to the latter. Socialism can be internationalist but not transnationalist.


Why do you believe some say the opposite?
#14347713
If socialism is about the working class, it is always national, because workers are never cosmopolitan and are almost always patriotic if not outright chauvinist.

Socialist intellectuals are different. If they are disconnected from workers and politics, they can fantasize to their heart's content about transnational proletarians leading the inevitable Utopia of tomorrow.

Meanwhile, actual socialist regimes (Chávez, Tito, Mao, Ho, even the Soviet Union in a way) are almost invariably nationalist, because the Nation-State is the primary tool by which social justice can be implemented and transnational capital is its primary adversary.
#14347725
Ombrageux wrote:If socialism is about the working class, it is always national, because workers are never cosmopolitan and are almost always patriotic if not outright chauvinist.

Socialist intellectuals are different. If they are disconnected from workers and politics, they can fantasize to their heart's content about transnational proletarians leading the inevitable Utopia of tomorrow.

Meanwhile, actual socialist regimes (Chávez, Tito, Mao, Ho, even the Soviet Union in a way) are almost invariably nationalist, because the Nation-State is the primary tool by which social justice can be implemented and transnational capital is its primary adversary.


I agree. I think socialism must have a nationalist or patriotic or sovereignist component, however one wants to put it. If a socialist revolution were to occur in a major country today, it would have to be ready to face possible opposition from the U.S. and its allies. It would have to be capable of defending itself and its economic system from outside forces. This does not preclude solidarity with or support for workers or socialist movements in other countries, though.
#14348517
@ Ombrageux

This is false. Soviet nationalism isn't comparable to contemporary liberal or fascist nationalism. Soviet nationalism basically meant USSR is greatest because its a "workers state" rather than a pride based on ethnicity or culture. Old traditions were denounced rather than revered like in other countries.

PI wrote:Nasser also persecuted communists but he still claimed to follow socialist policies. However if I am not mistaken the Egyptian Arab socialists claimed to be socialist as a means of developing the economy and not because socialism was an end in itself.


Socialism is more than just nationalizing a few of industries. Naseer's rhetoric of socialism was more of a way to get closer to USSR.

It seems to me undeniable that Nehru considered himself a socialist. Is there anything to suggest otherwise even if he was not an orthodox one?


Yes, he did liked to call himself a socialist but it should be more reflected in his works, which doesn't.

In that case how would you explain this phenomena of post-colonial socialism mixed with nationalism?


I am not exactly sure, what you mean by this.
#14350462
Socialism seems to me to be inseparable from internationalism and that generally socialist supporters of nationalism have produced rather messy compromises

It is probably true that socialists government in power have promoted national pride. Its not clear that except to the extent that it was a necessary way of ensuring National Security that it produced anything of lasting value. Some workers may have done an extra shift for the Soviet Union but workers in Communist countries do not seem to have been particularly motivated by nationalism. For all their efforts the Soviet Union fractured into small countries after Communism collapsed.

It is suggested here that Nationalism is working class and internationalism is largely an intellectual absorption. I think that true sometimes but only sometimes. There are plenty of nationalists who learned their attachments to the country and the flag at Private School or University. The ideologists of post colonialism were generally not dispossessed workers but the educated and wealthy..

The reality is that working people the world over (whether in Cairo or New York) suffer from differences in life opportunities with people in their own cities as well as people hundreds of thousands of miles away.
#14355853
I believe the difficulty comes from us when we subscribe to the idea that there is a "socialism" in the first place. I don't. There are elements of socialism in every government. Some more. Some less. Nationalism is also present, more or less. There is even socialism in capitalism when investments exist in the strength of groups. When people get together pooling their money it is a form of socialism.

The critics of socialism usually are thinking of when a government takes money from everyone and uses it to create and pay for social programs. That's only one form. Compare that to a bank using depositors money, investing it for profit and then sharing the proceeds in the form of dividends. American critics are usually thinking of socialism in terms of the government imposing high taxes on the population. They really object to taxes. That's what they don't like.
#14357390
Yes, absolutely, but socialism first has to be defined. Not in the sense of left-socialism or Marxian socialism, but assigning all manifestations of socialism to the left-wing is in my view an all too common error. Socialism has developed as a tendency in the developing and undeveloped parts of the world in communities completely independently of any Marxist baggage and it is unlikely that without the influence of the Soviet Union and superpower politics, indigenous forms of socialism from Africa to Latin America would necessarily find common cause with Marxist internationalism at all. Such variations were not expressely linked to liberalism, fascism, or other ideologies conceived in the Western world either. Consider the pan-Mayan movement which arose in Guatemala during the early years of the civil war and argued for a collectivist reformation of a Mayan nation stretching from the Yucatan in southern Mexico to Belize, Guatemala itself, and into western Honduras. A Mayan polity based upon principles of shared ethnic identity, linguistic identity, cultural identity, and religious-spiritual identity, along communitarian principles of an agrarian-based socialism.

Much has been made of the fact that Mussolini began his career in politics as a socialist and ended as a fascist. I would contend that Mussolini was always a (lowercase) national-socialist whose views on individual issues changed from time to time to accomodate different realities in the changing face of Europe and the world, but that his ideology from inception was always moving toward a singular goal.

Marxist-Leninism and the variant of socialism which is associated with it (and is typically what the mainstream of Western academia are referring to when referring to "socialism" or "socialists", such as Francisco Largo Caballero as one of many examples) is incompatible with nationalism. It seems to me however that it will from time to time invoke nationalism, or even ultra-traditionalist, religious, or patriarchal themes which retain more popularity than a "new" ideology like internationalist/Marxist socialism and are clearly ingrained in the national psyche. This seems to be more often the case during periods of crisis, when the ruling Marxist state doesn't have the time to engage in ideological deconstruction. Stalin's appeal to defend "Mother Russia" from the Wehrmacht and even allusions to Russia's imperial, Tsarist past are one famous example of this.

As for post-1945 socialism in the global south, this is more complicated. Ba'athism, to use one of your examples, is a form of right-socialism, though some one alternatively refer to it as a form of left-nationalism and it is well known that regionally there was a struggle between the left-wing and right-wing of the Ba'ath Party with the Saddamist faction (Iraqi Ba'athism) representing those drawn more to the right-wing and Syrian Ba'athism being slightly more leftist. Saddam and others before him who inspired and stood behind the Ba'athist coup in Iraq maintained more respect for and a closer ideological link to the heritage of European fascism and in addition were more prone to what some would call provincial nationalism (Iraqi nationalism) as opposed to pan-Arab socialism. This was one of the leading factors behind the infamous division of the Ba'ath Party in the Arab world, because Syrian Ba'athists were more pro-regional integration (and in fact pushed for the United Arab Republic's formation, which was a unitary state with Egypt and which Iraq was originally supposed to join) wheras the Iraqi right-wing was historically more suspicious of this move and didn't want to surrender national control (on issues such as where the capital would be). In addition, although Syria and Iraq were both close to the Soviet Union, Syria was closer and maintained an alliance with domestic Syrian communists which lent the state broader legitimacy across the spectrum whereas Iraqi intelligence and security forces actively persecuted and executed communists en masse once they outlived their usefulness.

It should also be said that some of this has to do with geopolitical convenience or strategizing and the realities of the post-1945 world. Subhas Chandra Bose, although pre-'45, is a prime example. Although the Netaji was an admirer of the Soviet Union and sympathized with some Marxist ideals even until death (there is no evidence, for example, that even as an ally of the Axis he ever supported racialism but sympathized with the Soviet stance on racial egalitarianism), he aligned with National Socialist Germany and Imperial Japan because these were at the time the primary world powers opposing British imperial power. The Soviet Union, to stave off fascism and later for other obvious reasons, came into accomodation with the British Empire and thus had no plans whatsoever to undermine the British Raj. This alliance of Bose's gradually led to a more right-wing movement amongst his forces in the Indian National Army, not only because it was Japanese-sponsored but because sympathies with the Axis were already commonplace amongst interwar-era observant Hindus, Hindu nationalists, and even many secular Indian nationalists. If history were different and it was Moscow in the position of primary opponent of British colonialism at the time, I have no doubt that many Indian supporters of Bose and indeed Bose himself would have adjusted ideologically.

Post-1945, many of the "post-colonial socialist" movements you reference were in many cases state socialist and nationalist. Going by what the leaders of movements said though or some superficial trappings is a bad idea, because the Soviet Union was the only major opponent of international capitalism and liberalism represented by the United States (which was previously allied to European - particularly British and French - colonialism and post-war would support economic puppetization of the same former European colonies without a European military presence). Thus, men like Nasser and Sukarno adjusted accordingly. Their socialism was never dogmatically Marxist. Nasser is the perfect example. Him and his brother had Axis sympathies, eagerly awaited the arrival of the Afrika Korps in Egypt and wished for German forces to march on Alexandria and Cairo, and only really turned against King Farouk's regime when the British still present in Cairo forced the ouster of Prime Minister Hussein Sirri Pasha who was considered pro-German. Later on, many former German officers including Abwehr intelligence assets went on to serve in distinguished positions in Egypt, including during the Nasserist period. If the war went differently, there is nothing to suggest that Nasser's form of Egyptian socialism which was extraordinary popular would ever have made an alliance with international communism.

There are endless examples.
Last edited by Far-Right Sage on 26 Jan 2014 08:27, edited 1 time in total.
#14357395
FRS wrote:It should also be said that some of this has to do with geopolitical convenience or strategizing and the realities of the post-1945 world. Subhas Chandra Bose, although pre-'45, is a prime example. Although the Netaji was an admirer of the Soviet Union and sympathized with some Marxist ideals even until death (there is no evidence, for example, that even as an ally of the Axis he ever supported racialism but sympathized with the Soviet stance on racial egalitarianism), he aligned with National Socialist Germany and Imperial Japan because these were at the time the primary world powers opposing British imperial power. The Soviet Union, to stave off fascism and later for other obvious reasons, came into accomodation with the British Empire and thus had no plans whatsoever to undermine the British Raj. This alliance of Bose's gradually led to a more right-wing movement amongst his forces in the Indian National Army, not only because it was Japanese-sponsored but because sympathies with the Axis were already commonplace amongst interwar observant Hindus, Hindu nationalists, and even many secular Indian nationalists. If history were different and it was Moscow in the position of primary opponent of British colonialism at the time, I have no doubt that many Indian supporters of Bose and indeed Bose himself would have adjusted ideologically.


Yes, that can happen and it certainly did. For example Captain Laxmi Sehgal a close comrade of Netaji joined communist party later but only after explaining herself and Netaji to then prominent communist Jyoti Basu in a historical discussion that went for over six hours.

But I would also say that he admired Germany and Japan (specially Japan) greatly too. As per he didn't believed in class struggle (existence of classes were not denied) but cooperation availed by an authoritarian state like Germany or even USSR. The basic disagreement with Germany was with Latter's theory of races.

Finally, in my previous post when I was saying socialism, I was obviously meaning Marxist socialism and others may define socialism differently (than marxist), I don't consider those definitions to represent socialism.
#14357471
Technology wrote:Socialism is almost broad to meaninglessness once you head outside of the very specific Marxist definition.
Not as meaningless as the term capitalism. The term socialism emerged in the aftermath of the French revolution. It was against the current European order. What was Capitalism against. When was there ever a capitalist revolution?
#14359715
I know it's a tad bit late but I'm gonna make an attempt to decipher anyway.

Well, one would have to examine what type of nationalism, and what type of socialism as well.

I'm sure no matter what brand of socialist, we can all agree that socialism is based around collective ownership of the means of production, whether you're a Marxist or a Social Democrat.

Now, if we examine the non-Marxian socialist ideologies, there is plenty of ability for nationalism to arise (no matter the type.) However, when it comes to Marxian socialism and their ideologies, their nationalism is not typical and akin to the nationalism of fascism, chauvinism, and jingoism. The nationalism of such is the nationalism that supported imperialism, colonialism, and is seen as bourgeois nationalism; the nationalism of the upper classes, to Marxists.

When we examine nationalism present in the Marxist states was a proletariat nationalism, which on the contrary to the nationalism of the bourgeoisie (seen as reactionary) the nationalism of the proletariat was revolutionary and their energies were put into the workers' state and not being subservient to their bourgeois overlords.
#14359742
Stahl wrote:I'm sure no matter what brand of socialist, we can all agree that socialism is based around collective ownership of the means of production, whether you're a Marxist or a Social Democrat.


Much more people call themselves socialist than those calling for the economy to be collectivized. Everyone from Hitler to Gordon Brown has called themselves socialist. We can argue that these people are wrong, but I think words are defined by their most common usages, otherwise they are useless. The problem with the word socialism is that people everywhere use it to describe things much vaguer than you are. In the 19th Century, it just meant anyone who supported the labor theory of value and the labor side of issues (Lysander Spooner was a socialist and supported private property but not wage labor), and in the 21st Century it means some abitrary level of government services or central planning.

When I say socialism I usually use it as you are here, but by this point, if you are talking to the common person, you usually have to spell out that you are talking about collectivization of an economy's property, and not just talking about things like a government providing a lot of services.

Add to that, right-socialists tend to use the term socialism to mean a society which rejects individualism and makes people subservient to their national duties. This is where Hitler would be a socialist even though he never collectivized the means of production. To paraphrase: "Why collectivize industry when we can collectivize the people?"
#14359813
Technology wrote:Much more people call themselves socialist than those calling for the economy to be collectivized. Everyone from Hitler to Gordon Brown has called themselves socialist. We can argue that these people are wrong, but I think words are defined by their most common usages, otherwise they are useless. The problem with the word socialism is that people everywhere use it to describe things much vaguer than you are.


While I do agree with you, there is a difference between relative definitions of socialism and what socialism actually is. Granted you can still have a debate about the latter, but you can pin it down to a few characteristics. The relative definition is restricted to what individuals or groups at the time refer to it as, whether they're right or wrong.
#14360118
Technology wrote:The problem with the word socialism is that people everywhere use it to describe things much vaguer than you are. In the 19th Century, it just meant anyone who supported the labor theory of value and the labor side of issues (Lysander Spooner was a socialist and supported private property but not wage labor), and in the 21st Century it means some abitrary level of government services or central planning.


Case in point: I know Spooner at one point was a member of First International, but that doesn't make him a socialist (the aim of the organization, IIRC, was to unite various leftist/socialist/anarchist groups). Today he's identified most closely with libertarianism/anarchy. In fact your post is the first time I've ever heard him referred to as "socialist".

So yes, I would agree that the word "socialist" has become almost entirely meaningless without context. It (as well as "conservative") has pretty much become a broad cartoon caricature, in America anyway. But I think that's because the two ruling parties in America have essentially the same playbook, so definitions must be broadened in order to mark a delineation between the two. As becomes painfully apparent on PoFo, outside of America those terms take on a much different (e.g., more specific) meaning.

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