[Goldberk]

He embodies nothing but self congratulatory middle class smugness.

Sometimes there are things to be smug about.

[Decky]

Since when have I had anything against reading?

[JRS1]

Sometimes there are things to be smug about.

It must be difficult constantly having to find new ways of maintaining ones deeply ingrained sense of superiority.

Im not saying this to you in particular, your seem alright for fan of Nigel. It just seems like a drag to be smug and middle class. Ill pass on the Brioche and the Opera, if its all the same to you.

You seem to regards people who dont aspire to your aesthetic values as guilty of a multitude of sins, and are therefore less worthy. Given the middle classes power over the working class this can have negative implications.

And hence you get inverted snobbery, which is actually class hatred. Which I have to keep in check. I've failed at this attempt.

Ill try and summarise my feelings. I should not have to eat the shit that you eat or listen to the same shit music or read the same shit books and change my background or appearance or look down on my family and friends. I wont join that club, and if the price of that is you feel smug then so be it.

I got carried away there.

[Cartertonian]

I should not have to eat the shit that you eat or listen to the same shit music or read the same shit books and change my background or appearance or look down on my family and friends.

QFT...

...but it's a two-way street.

The snag is that as I intimated right at the outset, if we allow ourselves to confuse the definitions and blur the boundaries of economic and social class, we arrive at a situation where we make assumptions about each other based on the shit we eat, the shit we watch, the shit we wear, the shit we read, the shit we drink, the shit we walk on the end of a lead, the shit we suport on a Saturday afternoon, etc, etc, ad nauseam.



If 'workingclass/proletarian' means eating junk, watching reality TV, wearing sports gear when we're not remotely sporty, reading tabloid newspapers, drinking lager and alcopops, owning 'status dogs', being a football hooligan, etc, etc, ad nauseam...then I am never going to be working class.

If, however, being proletarian means, 'working for the man', then I've been proletarian all my working life and am likely to remain so. Ergo, if I lend my support to democratic socialism who's to say I'm a 'middle class wanker'?

[Decky]

Social class =/= to economic class.

Like I said my bigotry agaist the (social) middle class is totaly seperate from my Marxist desire to overthrow the (economic) middle class and have the (economic) working class incharge of 100% of what they produce. It isn't the same thing. I am not sure how I could simplify that explanation further.

JRS1 isn't a red and he has similar social views too, it isn't anything to do with socialism. You might as well claim my dislike of Aston Villa fans in not ideologically pure since some vill fans are working class.

So don't worry Carter you are still safe to become a Maxist.

[Cartertonian]

My dislike of Aston Villa fans only stems from the buggers holding me up on match days as I tried to get out of Brum!

[Decky]

I am sure you never had that problem with bluenoses. Looks like you were here long enough to pick the right side anyway.

[Goldberk]

Well where do i start.....

Since when have I had anything against reading?

You're not, i accept that and most of my posts aren't directed at you but an attitude you seem to support.

You seem to regards people who dont aspire to your aesthetic values as guilty of a multitude of sins,

You've hit the nail on the head, for what is the point of a progressive ideology that does not value aesthetic greatness. The triumph of modernism was it's synthesis of aesthetics and politics, the two are intertwined, there is no socialist politics without socialist art/music/architecture etc, there is no ideal politics without ideal culture.

which is actually class hatred.

To wan't to raise others up is an act of love not hatred.

JRS1 isn't a red and he has similar social views too, it isn't anything to do with socialism. You might as well claim my dislike of Aston Villa fans in not ideologically pure since some vill fans are working class.

In reverse my dislike of the dominant working class culture has everything to do with my socialism.

[JRS1]

If 'workingclass/proletarian' means eating junk, watching reality TV, wearing sports gear when we're not remotely sporty, reading tabloid newspapers, drinking lager and alcopops, owning 'status dogs', being a football hooligan, etc, etc, ad nauseam...then I am never going to be working class.

If, however, being proletarian means, 'working for the man', then I've been proletarian all my working life and am likely to remain so. Ergo, if I lend my support to democratic socialism who's to say I'm a 'middle class wanker'?

Each to his own. I dont think you are a middle class wanker if that counts for anything.

There is a lot to admire about the middle classes. Its when they try and apply their values universally that irks me. And this goes beyond mere aesthetics to the actual fabric of society, applying values to communities where they were never going to work.

All these "issues" are aesthetic and taste choices and have no real meaning. Most of which have come about in the last 30 years or so. I dont think wearing shell suit denotes anything other than you like and can afford that look.

Let me tell you something about shell suits. You get a jacket and a pair of trousers for a cheap price. It has a label that is acceptable to just about everyone. You can put jumpers underneath so you dont need a winter coat. You can wear the trousers and the jacket separate, so you can put a pair of jeans on and go down the pub. They dont need ironing so you can hang them up and wear them the next day i.e. you only need one. I think they are an excellent choice of attire for those on low incomes.

You've hit the nail on the head, for what is the point of a progressive ideology that does not value aesthetic greatness. The triumph of modernism was it's synthesis of aesthetics and politics, the two are intertwined, there is no socialist politics without socialist art/music/architecture etc, there is no ideal politics without ideal culture.

I beg to differ. And even if it was the case it seems to me that nobody is stopping you from getting on with it.

To wan't to raise others up is an act of love not hatred.

I dont want to be raised up to a carbon copy of you.

In reverse my dislike of the dominant working class culture has everything to do with my socialism.

There are aspects of modern working class culture I would like to change, but aesthetics aint one of them.

There are aspects of middle class culture I would like to change, such as the greedy, grasping, monopolising, holier than thou self interest.

[redcarpet]

On a related note, very interesting documentary on the British class system;

Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZAyYBDUNug&list=PLe5JjMY42eiLMN8Al5nH4HDhSOy_TOOGN&index=24

Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLUY5xtqRoM&list=PLe5JjMY42eiLMN8Al5nH4HDhSOy_TOOGN

Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDw1YcywJ6k&list=PLe5JjMY42eiLMN8Al5nH4HDhSOy_TOOGN