[The Clockwork Rat]

But even this doesn't seem all that productive, no? I mean, treating the sentiments of ordinary workers as simply "the product of their environment" seems better but not all that much better. Implicit in this explanation (although I am not sure you intended this) is that ordinary workers have limited exposure or experience; their thoughts are the products of a limited environment. Bah, maybe that's not right at all.

Here is my real concern: why is it that so much of the left no longer wishes to engage with what workers are actually saying and thinking (and so break away from political correctness)? In general, I think the left's elitism is one of the primary reasons that fascists still resonate with working people. They are not afraid to speak their language. Here, then, is what I think is a real problem for the left: how do we become the voice of ordinary working class people when many of them are racist and even hostile to much of the kinds of policies the left advocates? I don't think this is entirely the fault of Marxists though, since Marxists have been painted as disconnected from the ordinary, every day issues that the working class is concerned with.

I'm not a strong theoretician or particularly well read in radical left activism, so I don't try too hard to convince people of the correctness of the left - a clumsy attempt to persuade people would probably be counter-productive. Rather, I just work and be a decent person who gently pushes towards the left. I've had to deal with racism at work, and all I can do is provide a counter-narrative whilst not being patronising.

Once I've been around for a good while (I've only been at my current job for about four months) then I may push a bit harder, but I'll never be a Kapital-thumping strident activist. There are a lot of us on the left. We have the internet for communication. Maybe we should spread out a bit more?

[Goldberk]

how do we become the voice of ordinary working class people when many of them are racist and even hostile to much of the kinds of policies the left advocates?

One of the most important questions the left faces, I think one way is about creating/highlighting alternative examples, alternatives to capitalist production, capitalist social relations and capitalist international relations, to plant a seed amongst the working class that an alternative is possible.

[Dagoth Ur]

I disagree that the working class is more racist than the petite-bourgeoisie. Intermarriage and just general interracial cooperation are all greater among workers than among the upper class. This is one of those cretinisms they charge the working class with until we ourselves believe it. Advocating alternative production is a much more difficult hill to climb.

[Goldberk]

I disagree that the working class is more racist than the petite-bourgeoisie.

I agree, but antipathy towards immigration isn't always racism and this is often a concern of the proletariat, and rightly so, their interests are threatened by rapid, mass immigration.

Advocating alternative production is a much more difficult hill to climb.

Absolutely, we should start with social relations and begin all change in the "everyday"

[ThereBeDragons]

Is the aim to destroy bourgeoisie morality to undermine the ideological basis of the capitalist superstructure (and eventually destroy it)?

Or is the goal to destroy the capitalist superstructure and thereby remove the socioeconomic foundations of bourgeoisie morality?

[Dagoth Ur]

I don't know why it has to be either or.

Re: immigration is a real issue yes. Not one that I have a good answer for either.

[ThereBeDragons]

I don't know why it has to be either or.

The first tactic gets progressively-minded liberals on your side but may alienate much of the "traditional" working class without Marxist consciousness. The second tactic does the opposite.

Modern communists pursue and alienate both.

[fuser]

Here is my real concern: why is it that so much of the left no longer wishes to engage with what workers are actually saying and thinking (and so break away from political correctness)? In general, I think the left's elitism is one of the primary reasons that fascists still resonate with working people. They are not afraid to speak their language. Here, then, is what I think is a real problem for the left: how do we become the voice of ordinary working class people when many of them are racist and even hostile to much of the kinds of policies the left advocates?

The bolded part seems like catch 22 situation. The solution to this is obviously as I had said previously is that we need more and more intellectuals, leaders coming out from this working class for now as the situation is, most of the position of leadership and the intellectuals that are in the leftist movement had no working class background so its more and more difficult for them to resonate with working class.

[JRS1]

Nigel Slater.

Says it all for me.

[Cartertonian]

I think you're on your own in that.

[JRS1]

I dont know where to start with that specimen; Nigel.

Class in the UK is a cultural divide, and for intelligent youngsters like Decky a divide of opportunity

The first divide can easily be overcome if people have a little humility.

However Nigel Slater epitomises all the things that irk me about middle class people. But Im not a hater, each to his own. But thats the thing about Nigel, he preaches class supremacy.

Smug twat in short.

[Potemkin]

Smug twat in short.

In other words, he's a typical middle-class Brit.

[Cartertonian]

I may be a twat, Potemkin, but I vociferously deny smugness!

[Goldberk]

Nothing wrong with Nigel Slater, and nothing wrong with a hierarchy of values, it just depends what those values are and whether we keep an elitist view or develop situations where all have access to said values.

[Decky]

Nothing wrong with Nigel Slater

I have never heard of this person but I have to side with JRS1 here. The fact that Goldberk likes him confirms JRS's asertion.

However Nigel Slater epitomises all the things that irk me about middle class people. But Im not a hater, each to his own. But thats the thing about Nigel, he preaches class supremacy.

Smug twat in short.

[Goldberk]

The thing with Nigel Slater is that he embodies a cultural conflict internal to the working class, between "middle class" values (eating better food, valuing education, valuing high culture, intellectual and political engagement) and "common" values (junk food, low culture, engagement with celebrity culture)

I'm with Nigel Slater in this conflict

[The Clockwork Rat]

On 9 April in 1958, Nigel Slater was born in Wolverhampton, West Midlands, to factory owner Tony Slater and housewife Kathleen as the third and youngest son.

Where is the conflict?

[Cartertonian]

The thing with Nigel Slater is that he embodies a cultural conflict internal to the working class, between "middle class" values (eating better food, valuing education, valuing high culture, intellectual and political engagement) and "common" values (junk food, low culture, engagement with celebrity culture)

Nigel Slater aside (I'd never hear of him either), it's interesting to see differentiation between classes articulated in this way, because values are a mix of things we consciously acquire through experience and core belief structures. It's surely the 'Eliza Doolittle' experiment?

Now, going off on a tangent (fuck it - it's my thread!), HM Armed Forces have a long history of taking those working class Wellington famously described as 'scum of the Earth' and in many cases, returning them to civilian life after a 22-yr career as firmly middle-class 'pillars of the community', etc, etc. That's seen as being a good, developmental thing, but the essence of this class snobbery about which this thread revolves is that some would see the retired soldier - the classic, 'working class kid made good' - as a class traitor.

[Decky]

That's seen as being a good, developmental thing, but the essence of this class snobbery about which this thread revolves is that some would see the retired soldier - the classic, 'working class kid made good' - as a class traitor.

Well duh. A working class person who kills other working class people for money. I mean what else would you expect reds to think of them.

[Cartertonian]

But Red Army soldiers would be ok?